Cerac MC XL vs E4D

[PCDL]

I had an inLab about 10 years ago, and it was our first foray into alumina (spinell too!) and zirconia past making copings by hand. It was cumbersome, and took getting used to, but if you worked hard at it, you could get some halfway decent results, and the labor cost was a fraction.

Fast forward to Present.

We currently run 3Shape on 3 workstations, and 3i's Incise on another (I still have a Forte scanner going strong) and we have become accustomed to 3Shapes software.
I recently acquired just the software for the inLab so I can receive files. No scanner, no mill, I just have been getting pressure to get into the connect system.

When I went down for training in NC, I felt like I stepped back in time 5 years. I have always poo-pooed cerec in-office systems for poor restorations and bad margins; but now I know WHY. You have to, in comparison to modern software, fight with the Cerec design software to get anything quality out of it. One of my new Connect clients came to the lab yesterday, and was blown away by what the 3Shape software can do (and he runs the cerec study club in my area).

The other thing to remember is the quality of the milling machine. Think about it, would you rather mill glass in your lab on a $50k (overpriced at that) milling machine, or would you rather have a printing or milling done on a $100-$350k industrial machine that someone has invested in??

For me, I would rather "rent" the better CAM technology and just use a great design software.

 

[harmonylab]

redcam, bluecam, it doesn't really matter. margins are better with bluecam, but it still sucks. I doubt you'd get any better results with the most accurate scanners in the world, considering the inaccuracy of the mill.

having seen what origin system can do with typical preps, and with other more accurate systems out there, the inlab in comparison just plain sucks.

 

[mrcadcam]

Here is one we just received with Cerec AC BlueCam running 3.8X, it was viewed using Delcam Exchange.


There beauty's

 

[DMC]

Can you view triangles?

I hate trying to clean up that mess and make a model file to print.

We do it, but it stinks. Too much labor.

We use a bunch of software to help, other than

 

[paulg100]

its amazing to think that your supposed to make a precision dental appliance with that garbage.

 

[mrcadcam]

Yes Delcam Exchange can view triangles but you cant to anything to the models within the exe, just simple Import/Export. I wish they would hurry up with the newer import for 3shape though, requested it multiple times from them with no avail yet. But i guess they could be running into legal issues with 3shape about it though.

its amazing to think that your supposed to make a precision dental appliance with that garbage.

Yeah the ineos is a fraction better just cause you take multiple scans of the dies and align them. But working with the docs scans its horrendous.

Very anxious to see the Trios point cloud though.

 

[DMC]

F-it!

We de-encrypt dcm all day. Get DentalShaper and Rhino and be done with it.

Comes with great tools for the money.

 

[cadcamartist]

Well call it luck if you will. I have my docs do bite wing xrays before bonding in the mouth..posted on my twitter account (how do you post pics on here?) be glad to show you.. You can clearly see my restorations are sealed. If they are not it shows a very sharp and dark blacklline between restoration and tooth structure. I use loupes that vary from 3 to 15x magnification and margins are sealed. I spent 2 weeks hands on training at Sirona in Charlotte, NC ,once equipment was purchased, I dont claim that my system is better than others, But my doctors are very happy with my restorations. I do not have the cloud data for the blue cam. I accept cases via connect dental impressions from chairside and I see x rays of my restorations in the mouth and they are definately sealed. I use the InEos to do a rotational scan on individual dies and the software integrates that for greater marginal accuracy.I mill models of the scans to double check margins, contacts. I am not saying that I am the best in the world guys, but I am constatnly getting great feedback from doctors> I do train my doctors to give me shoulder preps with rounded contours and the preps I recieve are awesome. KNife edge preps are not going to produce as goodof a fit i usuallyget about .5 minimum thicness at the margin.I know other Inlab users who are very successful and love their machines as well. But there are lots of guys who don't like it. Most forums you only hear the bad so I thought i would share my experience. If this system isnt accurate...how are they integrating with Galileos and planning implant systems in conjunction with E.Max from the CT scans? I know there are some systems that are more accurate but I feel my restorations are good and take pride in what I am doing. Sorry, didnt realize so many people hate Sirona.My experience has been good, thats is all I was saying, should have just kept my opinion to myself I guess....This forum is becoming a great discouragement

 

[cadcamartist]

the scans I recieve from AC blue cam look way better than that one above...not sure who taking the scans but maybe they need a little help...

 

[cadcamartist]

http://twitgoo.com/4uclk4

case I recieved and designed today in Inlab software from Blue CamAC unit.As soon as I can, will post some xrays to show sealed fit in the mouth. How do I make the picture appear instead of the link?

 

[cadcamartist]

http://twitgoo.com/4ufng9
Zirconia coping......i realize this picture could be better...pics will be taken with HD camera in the future. Just got a new camera. Let me know how I can make the images appear in the message...

 

[zvac]

cadcamartist,

I share your thoughts about the inLab System. I have the same equipment with the exception of the sintering furnace. Mine is the Zyrcomat.

New material from 3M you might find interesting is the Lava Ultimate.

Never pressed emax before. I find milling emax fun and enjoyable. A lot fewer steps and a lot less time.


Cerec on !

 

[DMC]

http://twitgoo.com/4ufng9
Zirconia coping......i realize this picture could be better...pics will be taken with HD camera in the future. Just got a new camera. Let me know how I can make the images appear in the message...

Can I send you a die, and you show me the money?

Where do I ship?

Come to Richmond and I'll show you the behind-the-sceens of what's doing in your CAD/CAM system. It is simply waaay outside of the standards of Dentistry. Plain and simple. If you have success it is most certian to have a whole bunch-o-luck involved. Has nothing to do with your skills as a Dental Tech. I'm not knocking you one bit sir.

 

[RileyS]

Cadcam artist,
it is so interesting to hear the success you have. I've done thousands upon thousands of painstaking units of zirc, emax, brux, and patheticaly failed cadwax with our unit. I complained almost the entire time to our reps of both sirona and patterson with many calls to tech support for help and days in "advanced inlab courses" to utilizer the system to it's fullest all to no avail. Our doctors said they had amazing margins with them though this is due to me spending about 10 min ave fixing them. I know of one local lab who loves theirs even though he has says he spends 5 min ave fixing his margins, but go to a local Patterson inlab meeting and you'll find a room full of disappointed owners. In fact at the last one I went to the western sirona manager actually apologized that sirona had only been focusing on the chairside cerec and would be turning some attention to us scum suckers...after going over the new amazing technology that would be released a year later (this January) one lab tech said "So you guys bought 3shapes old software?"
So it seems that some systems work and most don't. For those that work it sounds like you must have perfect preps though. I can scan the ugliest prep in the world with our 3shape and send it to be milled at any milling center with any other mill and I'm confident I'll receive a crown/coping with no more than 1 minute adjusting of the fit and margin. There is another perk of an open system, you own all the mills out there and can choose from the majority of brands of material so you're not handcuffed.
Not wanting to shut any inlab supporters up at all, just continuing the discussion.

 

[mrcadcam]

the scans I recieve from AC blue cam look way better than that one above...not sure who taking the scans but maybe they need a little help...

Granted that scan was bad but we see them all day long. I pulled the following image that you have on your Twitter account. Clearly you see the problem areas right. Everyone gets inprecise scans, your just having to tweek your milled restoration to get it to fit properly.

To add a image you have to add it as a attachment and then post the html in the insert image button.

 

[harmonylab]

Well call it luck if you will. I have my docs do bite wing xrays before bonding in the mouth..posted on my twitter account (how do you post pics on here?) be glad to show you.. You can clearly see my restorations are sealed. If they are not it shows a very sharp and dark blacklline between restoration and tooth structure. I use loupes that vary from 3 to 15x magnification and margins are sealed. I spent 2 weeks hands on training at Sirona in Charlotte, NC ,once equipment was purchased, I dont claim that my system is better than others, But my doctors are very happy with my restorations. I do not have the cloud data for the blue cam. I accept cases via connect dental impressions from chairside and I see x rays of my restorations in the mouth and they are definately sealed. I use the InEos to do a rotational scan on individual dies and the software integrates that for greater marginal accuracy.I mill models of the scans to double check margins, contacts. I am not saying that I am the best in the world guys, but I am constatnly getting great feedback from doctors> I do train my doctors to give me shoulder preps with rounded contours and the preps I recieve are awesome. KNife edge preps are not going to produce as goodof a fit i usuallyget about .5 minimum thicness at the margin.I know other Inlab users who are very successful and love their machines as well. But there are lots of guys who don't like it. Most forums you only hear the bad so I thought i would share my experience. If this system isnt accurate...how are they integrating with Galileos and planning implant systems in conjunction with E.Max from the CT scans? I know there are some systems that are more accurate but I feel my restorations are good and take pride in what I am doing. Sorry, didnt realize so many people hate Sirona.My experience has been good, thats is all I was saying, should have just kept my opinion to myself I guess....This forum is becoming a great discouragement

I bet a lot of those people who are happy with the system have never seen any other system. Most of us here are familiar with multiple systems, and know first hand how lacking inlab is.

If you get perfectly smooth preps with shoulder, the might get decent fit on the margins. But with most preps we get, the system is totally incapable of producing accurate margins. Most doctors simply don't care. They do the same prep for their own family members.

Margin fits are worse with zirconia, as it mills in endo mode and won't mill out where the bur won't fit into. That ends up being a lot of spots where it has to be adjusted to fit. I'm sick and tired of wasting so much time fitting in restorations.

Compare that to origin, where we took several cases with everyday preps, and those had accurate margins, with no need to adjust to make them fit.

Should I even bother to mention how outdated the software is? Ok, fine, not every system is 3shape. But at the very least, the software should be reasonably bug free, but inlab is worse than a beta version. The types of bugs that I have to deal with are just plain inexcusable for a final release.

Should I go on? I'd never recommend inlab to anyone looking for a quality system. There are much better systems at better prices even.

 

[cadcamartist]

yes,,,sometimes i do spend a minute or to hitting ares to create a sealed margin....but don't the guys pressing dothat also? My units are done before pressers even turn their burnout furnace on. So 5 minutes is no biggie to me at all .I would NEVER mill in endo mode...Thats a bad idea. The new software you can fix those small spots you circled on thedie.
ZVAC...zyrcomat is good..but if you can afford toinvest...The new InFire Speed furnace only has the advantage of a 90 minute sintering cycle. I can mill 10 units per day as well as all my e.max and TZI an dthey are done before that evening if I am really loaded with cases.
And mr ***...how can you comment on my skills as a dental Tech. I have a degree in dental technology and have owned lab for over 6 years. Sounds like knocking me is exactly what you are doing...Think i have had enough of the DentalLab "Network", I thought this was a placeto help each other not a pissing contest.

 

[rkm rdt]

I love this site!

BS doesn't stand a chance here!

 

[BobCDT]

Hi,
Unfortunately, I spent over $100K for Cerec. Sold it for $17K. It does not work well in a lab environment. Dentists need to prep teeth to accommodate the mill. They will do this if they own (and have to pay a mortgage on it). however, you are not going to get your docs to prep correctly for quality Cerec results.
When it come to milling e.max the diamond tools chip the margins. This is not once in a while. It happens on most cases. If you move to Cerec milling of e.max you will need to be routinely repairing margins before shipping cases. I don't know about you, but I am not sending out new cases with repairs. Furthermore, emax is stronger, fits better and cost less to press. I don't understand why lab would want to mill it.
When I comes to milling zirconia there are much better, cheaper and versital systems out there. One last important point. When milling zirconia we cut the material with carbides. When using Cerec you grid the material with diamonds. I believe the difference between cutting and grinding zirconia is quite significant.
In conclusion, DON'T put a Cerec system in your lab. It's junk!! If you have any interest in providing good quality prosthetics I gaurentee a year form now we will be telling you "we told you so".
Please keep in mind, I do feel qualified to respond to this post as I own many mills that give us great results on a daily basis.
I have never used the E4D so I can't comment on it.
Bob

 

[TheLabGuy]

yes,,,sometimes i do spend a minute or to hitting ares to create a sealed margin....but don't the guys pressing dothat also?

Heck no, that's called a redo. Pressed margins are right on the money.