Cerac MC XL vs E4D

Techy

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Looking to invest in a machine which will cut Zirconia and Lithium Disilicate....
I've heard the sales pitches,,,,now need a "real" opinion from users!


I am curious in:

Fit
Tool wear/cost
Material cost
Time
Dependability
(the usual questions for any Mill)


Can anyone enlighten me hear before I pull the triggerpopcorn
 
harmonylab

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Do you really want all the details? Let me just save us some time.

INLAB SUCKS!

4 year inlab user here.
 
rkm rdt

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If you don't believe the sales pitches then why would you buy either?
 
DMC

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Looking to invest in a machine which will cut Zirconia and Lithium Disilicate....
I've heard the sales pitches,,,,now need a "real" opinion from users!


I am curious in:

Fit
Tool wear/cost
Material cost
Time
Dependability
(the usual questions for any Mill)


Can anyone enlighten me hear before I pull the triggerpopcorn

Run away!
 
rkm rdt

rkm rdt

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Looking to invest in a machine which will cut Zirconia and Lithium Disilicate....
I've heard the sales pitches,,,,now need a "real" opinion from users!


I am curious in:

Fit
Tool wear/cost
Material cost
Time
Dependability
(the usual questions for any Mill)


Can anyone enlighten me hear before I pull the triggerpopcorn

Send your work to a lab.
 
Techy

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I am the lab....I want to cut Glass!!

Whats my best option?
 
RileyS

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Holy crap techy! read all the posts and forums on here about the inlab! I haven't heard a good thing about the E4D either! Look into getting an open scanner like 3shape or delcam and buying the little Origin miller or the one from imes icore or anything scott *** recommends for the same price. And if you do pull the trigger, save a round to send through your head...or just the inlab system.
We need to start a S.I.A thread, Sirona inlab Anonymous
Hi, my name is Riley, and I've been off cerec inlab for nearly a year now.
 
Techy

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Riley,,,before I blow my brains out for asking advice....I run a milling center.
I have a few 3shape scanners,,,which Orgin machine are you referring too?

The 400/500 series....don't think it cuts glass

Do you have an Orgin machine?

I apologize for bringing up two machines that have given people some "issues"


Just looking for guidance....Scott? what would you recommend to cut lithium disilocate?
 
RileyS

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Origin mills some of our stuff and it comes back excellent. They are a about ten minutes away so I go and visit now and then. i think their small mill can be upgraded to mill pretty much anything.
I've talked with another local tech who worked at a milling center. They went from the origin to imes icore and he said the imes was noticeably better.
Sorry, I get a little testy when it comes to Sirona.
 
TheLabGuy

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... and I'd like to continue this conversation by saying "Hi, I'm Rob, I use to be an Inlab addict, and have been clean now for almost four years". The data isn't there, just ask Scott, the data points are so far away from each other compared to the lab scanners that it isn't even close, hence the fits.
 
trianglej

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Remember the S.I.A. mottos:
Mill and Let Mill, EMax does it, But for the grace of Mark There go I,First things First with a Bruxzir
 
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Macron Dental Lab

Macron Dental Lab

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Syrona dental = class action, a class suit, or a representative action is a form of lawsuit in which a large group of people collectively bring a claim to court .

Note:A Casio calculator have more technology inside compared to a inEos scanner.

Sorry in lab users i got jumped in a dark corner by Syrona in the past. Im ok now.
 
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RileyS

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Remember the S.I.A. mottos:
Mill and Let Mill, EMax does it, But for the grace of Mark There go I,First things First with a Bruxzir

it feels funny...but what the h?:confused::p
 
2thm8kr

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E4D is limited to e.max, Empress (why would you use it),3M Paradigm and Paradigm C.
Also Acrylic Blocks for burnout.
No Zr blocks are available for it yet.
No bridge length blocks.
Cost per unit with burs around $50 (e.max)
After working with it for 7 months fits are really nice, but not as nice as pressed e.max.
e. max blocks limited to LT, HT, and recently V1-3 and O1 O2.
Right now the only place to get blocks is Big Uncle Hank as they are partnered with D4D.
Around 20 mins to mill # 19 out of e.max for example.
Have milled 500-600 units (e.Max) with this mill so far. It's only been down twice for 1 day each time. Parts showed up next day FedEx and repair tech showed up shortly after.
Technical support from D4D, I can't really complain. If the person you are speaking with can't help you, they will get someone who can or call you back post haste to solve the problem.
If you are working with some real joker Drs that aren't willing to modify their technque on preparations. You might be urinating in a head wind to get good marginal fit.
I only mill e.max and acrylic blocks on occasion, so I can't coment on 3Ms products.
 
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paulg100

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Ok this is based on 100's of hours of Inlab (craplab) use but:

NO NO NO NO NO .....NOOOO!
DO NOT GO NEAR EITHER OF THOSE TWO SYSTEMS! TRUST US, WE ARE TRYING TO SAVE YOU WASTING A TON OF MONEY.

Forget about cutting glass. Get a good quality wax mill or printer and cad design and press.

That way you get the best of both from a prodcution point of view, fits will be waaaay better then those two fisher price mills, and its way more ecconomical from a material perspective.

Apart from the crap scanner and mill (CEREC),aftersales support (at least in the UK) from both the distributor and Sirona is an obsolute joke. All they want is your money.
Its all based around smoke screens and lies.

These systems need to stay chair side where they were designed for, where the doc has full cotroll over prep design and a financial inccentive to wanna learn how to prep for its limitations. That is the only way of having a hope in hell of getting something close to a decent fit due to the use of a massive 1mm bur diameter of the unit (cerec).

Im pretty sure E4D has all the same issues from what ive heard.

Dont say we havnt warned you.

Oh and forget about milling wax with the inlab: burs clog all the time so its useless.

If you still wanna buy, give me a ring and make me an offer on our system. Its sitting here collecting dust. (im in the UK though)

"And if you do pull the trigger, save a round to send through your head...or just the inlab system."

LOL! it just made me pull all my hair out instead.

"If you are working with some real joker Drs that aren't willing to modify their technque on preparations. You might be urinating in a head wind to get good marginal fit."

Thats most mainstream clients then. Not so much Jokers, but no financial incentive to want to change prep design, so why should they. Just go to a lab thats pressing.


"Syrona dental = class action, a class suit, or a representative action is a form of lawsuit in which a large group of people collectively bring a claim to court "

Yes this is what need to be done. If anyone with inlab wants start a slush fund to take legal action against Sirona let me know. I Have black and white evidence of the problems but cant do anything without an experts report which is gonna cost $$.

Here is the crap from the ineosred scanner:

aimg846.imageshack.us_img846_6836_pointcloudaxialwall.jpg

300um gaps, wow great.

Whats this! there is a bluecam now, OK lets check the accuracy specs for that..search!...search!...search!
Oh they dont publish them anywhere, apart from subjective data burried somewhere in a study. Accuracy data for the scanner is listed as N/A in the specs.

i wonder why that is! IS it because if its published as a specification it HAS to acheive it? Where as part of a subjective study it dosent? yes of course it is. More Smoke screens.

Sirona are very clever and as slipery as hell. Wouldnt trust em at all.
aimg846.imageshack.us_img846_6836_pointcloudaxialwall.jpg
 
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"Syrona dental = class action, a class suit, or a representative action is a form of lawsuit in which a large group of people collectively bring a claim to court "

Yes this is what need to be done. If anyone with inlab wants start a slush fund to take legal action against Sirona let me know. I Have black and white evidence of the problems but cant do anything without an experts report which is gonna cost $$.

I would love to see this. Then maybe a standard will be set and all other scanner companies will be more upfront about their devices.
 
cadcamartist

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I have the complete Inlab system and love it...My emax fits is perfect.. Takes a few cases to dial parametes in..I have the ineos blue scanner..I have the Infire speed sintering unit.I can sinter my zirconia in 90 minutes versus 9 hours with most other sytems.Don't buy anything based on forum opinions. Go to the plant and put your hands on it. DO NOT buy a scanner with red beams...A red laser can not read a flat plane. I mill zirconia frames...TZI (bruxzir) and e.max.I do cut back in the design and layer porcelain with one fire. I recieve cases through cerec connect digital impressions. I do some restorations with no models. Also I have milled Veneers as thin as .3 mm. But ultimately all cad cam systems are only as good as the prep.You need a nice shoulder or modified chamfer. If your docs give you knife edge preps you will struggle.
 
cadcamartist

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follow me on twitter @2oothmaker and you can see what the design software and some restorations look like...those previous pics on here from the red cam are dinosaurs compared to what they have now. New 4.0 software comes out in January. I am running the 3.86 now
 
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paulg100

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please post a point cloud of the bluecam data, then we will see.

When i last had a unit milled which was captured by the bluecam, it still didnt fit anything like pressing.

Are you getting 360 sealed margins by eye?

are you using magnification, if so what kind of marginal accuracy are you getting?

Why do sirona lie by saying the accuracy data for the scanner is not available?


Sorry mr cadcam artist but if you feel you are turning out high quality fits with that system, you are completely disillusioned.
 
DMC

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That guy is too close to Sirona in the US to know any better.

They have very good brain-washing sessions. It's not 100% his fault.

Come to Richmond, and we'll show ya CAD/CAM.:)

You are missing some info there buddy. BlueCAM is also waaay outside of the standards of Dentistry here in the States. Easy to prove. If you had success, it was by luck.
 
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