Beware denture lab owners!!!!!

[hydent]

I'm on the same page with you, Bart. My local accounts are insurance driven because Hawaii has mandates in place for coverage; so there's a participate or starve mentality that goes on. When I'm asked to order implant parts I always point out that it will be less expensive for the dr to acquire them on their own. i have some that still ask me to order them. Fine.
As far as teeth go, well, if they provide them, they're also responsible for any unfortunate outcomes if the mould is wrong... not my problem. FWIW 99% just let me choose the teeth and do my thing. The few I have that do it themselves at least seem to know what they're doing, so I'm cool with it.
Now for my story o' the month: an account that I've done a TON of pro bono work for for women's and homeless shelters makes a TRP for a patient who is a massive gagger, and refuses delivery. Invoice is less than $200.
He tries to return it to me for a refund, WTF am I supposed to do with it? the account himself is only worth around $500/month, and is incapable of improving is lackluster attempts at removable.
So I said no.
Guess who I'm now hounding to pay his last bill ,<$500?
This may be my first time dragging some sorry excuse into small claims.... but I WILL.

That's just not right what they don't understand is that a good denture lab isn't around every corner.. he'll be back. That's what that dentist did he left me to use another lab due to the dissatisfaction with the price of the teeth. he came back beggin, luckily people loyal to me told me what had been said about me......

 

[CYNOSURER]

The way I handle docs who supply there own teeth is to bill them out at full MRSP and then give them a 70% discount. I have one new doc that now wants me to pick out the teeth and order them (from Ivoclar) and bill his account. I did that once. I got the packing slip in the order but not a copy of the bill so I don't know what he's paying. I was okay with the 70 % thing as the other guys were at least doing some of the work. Picking out the teeth ordering them and throwing them in box. But I need to re-figure what I'm going to charge this guy. I wonder if Ivoclar is charging us both shipping fees though I thought they bundle them all with my order?

 

[AJEL]

Guess who I'm now hounding to pay his last bill ,<$500?
This may be my first time dragging some sorry excuse into small claims.... but I WILL.

This is why I changed my prescription/contract, just above the Dr's signature is a little paragraph.
Warranty as Per Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) ||2-315 Particular Purpose. As per tradepractice ther is NO WARRANT of MERCHANTABILITY. I reserve UCC ||2-508(1) Right to Cure & UCC ||2-709 Action for Price. "Dentist agrees to pay all reasonable collection costs including attorneys fees, court costs and interest on umpaid invoices/statements at time of filing. Interest on late payments to be 2% per month compounded monthly.":argue:
I've had to go to court 4 times since adding this & the judge loves it. It doesn't make the case but is a nice touch (especially spelling out the pretreated penalty)
The phrase no warranty of merchantability mostly means it is custom and cannot be used for any other purpose.

 

[AJEL]

There is a denture tooth company that starts with an "I" and ends with a "clar" that will through you under the bus by not selling their teeth at their own "suggested retail price" to dentists. I recently had a dentist order his own teeth for a case and was irate that I was marking the teeth up (to their suggested retail) This is standard practice with this company ...you might want to look into it. I called Schein and they said they would absolutely never do that .......I'm just saying!!!

This is part of our limited profit on our craft without that... WE LOSE!!

Is this Brian well U have hit a nerve over 340 views so far, lots of interest. I was a Stocking lab for Ivoclair in 1979-1980, They might have changed a lot since then but I still only order when someone request, I mostly use Vita, I do like their BASO4 for implant imaginng though. Good thread!

 

[TomZ]

I have had several Drs over the years that have bitched about my markup above the recommended resale price. After mis-selecting or having to change shades a couple of times, all but 1 decided that the markup was worth paying instead of the logistics of reordering and maintaining an account with the tooth manufacturer. With that being said, I would confront the offending Dr and explain that "rip-off" is a rather strong description of your policy to "value add" the teeth with the labor to select, order, and maintain a tooth account. The operative term is recommended.

 

[hydent]

Is this Brian well U have hit a nerve over 340 views so far, lots of interest. I was a Stocking lab for Ivoclair in 1979-1980, They might have changed a lot since then but I still only order when someone request, I mostly use Vita, I do like their BASO4 for implant imaginng though. Good thread!

No this is Brians older brother I have a laboratory in Nv. I too have switched to mostly vita and I cary a small stock of Tribos and I use a little bit of enigma sometimes too. It's been a well recieved change I've gotten a LOT of complements on the physiodens in my cases. Thanks

 

[hydent]

I have had several Drs over the years that have bitched about my markup above the recommended resale price. After mis-selecting or having to change shades a couple of times, all but 1 decided that the markup was worth paying instead of the logistics of reordering and maintaining an account with the tooth manufacturer. With that being said, I would confront the offending Dr and explain that "rip-off" is a rather strong description of your policy to "value add" the teeth with the labor to select, order, and maintain a tooth account. The operative term is recommended.

I don't at all mind a question about prices of products or services. I bill ala cart and I welcome questions, but for certain I make no adjustments to them (unless a mistake has been made) so if they don't like it they can move on....maybe I can refer him your way Tom. As I said, I don't hate Ivoclar I don't even wish ill fortune to them. I would like people to speak up and let them know that this isn't the right thing to do to laboratories. The dr has been delt with accordingly now I think Ivoclar needs to take a little heat for their policies. Many of you veiwing this may not care at all, but for the ones that do, express your concernes to your sails rep. I hope to maintain a repor and an account with Ivoclar however I used them almost exclusively for teeth and that has ended.

 

[TomZ]

Bart-
The message of our value is one I have always broadcasted, even when it fell on dead ears. With the lack of restocking our industry with actual dental technicians and not just dental workers, those who understand the dynamic of supply and demand, have the skill sets, and can communicate, can control the technoclinical enviorment like never before.

In regard to manufacturers exposing your markup policy to clients, its really shouldnt matter. Its your policy and if you have provided your clients with policy packs at the initial time of commencing with a business relationship, all you need do is refer to that policy and indicate that by sending you work, they have agreed to your terms.

 

[hydent]

Bart-
The message of our value is one I have always broadcasted, even when it fell on dead ears. With the lack of restocking our industry with actual dental technicians and not just dental workers, those who understand the dynamic of supply and demand, have the skill sets, and can communicate, can control the technoclinical enviorment like never before.

In regard to manufacturers exposing your markup policy to clients, its really shouldnt matter. Its your policy and if you have provided your clients with policy packs at the initial time of commencing with a business relationship, all you need do is refer to that policy and indicate that by sending you work, they have agreed to your terms.

Good stuff, Thanks
I think this guy was an extreme exception though he is now making his own dentures via his garage to save overhead expenses. His need to cut overhead was on the extreme side. imo he is trying to decrease overhead by cutting out the middleman. He wanted a high end dentures at a low end cost. There is actually quite a bit to the story much of which I don't care to discuss on a public forum. My main concern was letting people know that Ivoclar was doing this. Nobody's opinion is going to change the way I feel on the matter. They can sell their teeth the way they choose, it's their business I just don't agree with the way they go about it. They can have the 100 dollars a month he spends ... I'll take my business elsware.

 

[kcdt]

The way I handle docs who supply there own teeth is to bill them out at full MRSP and then give them a 70% discount. I have one new doc that now wants me to pick out the teeth and order them (from Ivoclar) and bill his account. I did that once. I got the packing slip in the order but not a copy of the bill so I don't know what he's paying. I was okay with the 70 % thing as the other guys were at least doing some of the work. Picking out the teeth ordering them and throwing them in box. But I need to re-figure what I'm going to charge this guy. I wonder if Ivoclar is charging us both shipping fees though I thought they bundle them all with my order?

My opinion is that the time you spend making those choices for this guy deserves remuneration- say the difference in mark up. No one deserves the benefit of cost savings for not, in fact, doing ANYTHING.

 

[kcdt]

Good stuff, Thanks
I think this guy was an extreme exception though he is now making his own dentures via his garage to save overhead expenses. His need to cut overhead was on the extreme side. imo he is trying to decrease overhead by cutting out the middleman. He wanted a high end dentures at a low end cost. There is actually quite a bit to the story much of which I don't care to discuss on a public forum. My main concern was letting people know that Ivoclar was doing this. Nobody's opinion is going to change the way I feel on the matter. They can sell their teeth the way they choose, it's their business I just don't agree with the way they go about it. They can have the 100 dollars a month he spends ... I'll take my business elsware.

FWIW there is no way in hell that the time he is investing in fabricating his own is consistent with his hourly production in the clinic. This meathead is literally stepping over $100 bills to pick up pennies.

 

[droberts]

I have found that by putting a flat fee on dentures / partials / bar cases, etc. doctors over look the itemized fees. If they perhaps want to send their own teeth / analogs/ attachments, etc. deduct the lab rate from their invoice. Just one less bill I have to pay.

 

[rkm rdt]

I have found that by putting a flat fee on dentures / partials / bar cases, etc. doctors over look the itemized fees. If they perhaps want to send their own teeth / analogs/ attachments, etc. deduct the lab rate from their invoice. Just one less bill I have to pay.

..because all patients are the same?

Flat fees for custom work?...no thanks

 

[AJEL]

I have found that by putting a flat fee on dentures / partials / bar cases, etc. doctors over look the itemized fees. If they perhaps want to send their own teeth / analogs/ attachments, etc. deduct the lab rate from their invoice. Just one less bill I have to pay.

Now do U charge that at the custom tray stage or when the case has finished? I had one case on the shelf for 23months (pt had to get out of jail and go figure it still fit!) If U charge one fee at the finish some cases aren't going to to have money on them for a few months. I have one right now that has 5 reset charges over 3 months ( but I have been paid for the tray,base, articulations,set-up, & re-sets, pickups, & teeth so far.) It may sound petty but putting my money & time I don't want to subsidize the DDS's already nice life style.

 

[droberts]

..because all patients are the same?

Flat fees for custom work?...no thanks

The majority of my work is custom, and I do get paid for it.
All bases are covered here.

 

[droberts]

Now do U charge that at the custom tray stage or when the case has finished? I had one case on the shelf for 23months (pt had to get out of jail and go figure it still fit!) If U charge one fee at the finish some cases aren't going to to have money on them for a few months. I have one right now that has 5 reset charges over 3 months ( but I have been paid for the tray,base, articulations,set-up, & re-sets, pickups, & teeth so far.) It may sound petty but putting my money & time I don't want to subsidize the DDS's already nice life style.

Trays are billed out separately. They are not part of the case here.
The case starts here when the final impression is sent.
My policy on that. Any case that sets over 30 days is billed out. You have to be upfront with your clients. So far, I have had none that don't agree to this policy.

 

[rkm rdt]

The majority of my work is custom, and I do get paid for it.
All bases are covered here.

..and you also have an extra bill to pay when you order your own teeth..unles you get those for free too!

Stop ripping off the American labs!

 

[IVY]

I wish I could take credit, it was a different Jedi Knight. Either way, it makes sense, I've enjoyed the factual banter back and forth but I'll call out any sales weasel, supplier, or manufacturer who makes such a blatant biased opinion to push their product under the cloak anonymity. There goes my Ivoclar discount

Good for you!! To funny!!

 

[Kreyer]

Bart,

In all due respect it seems to me you made a business decision based on emotion not facts... No one on this forum shared the conversation or was on the same line with supplier and dentist...Second or third hand info.. Every supplier who sells any dental products makes deals...It is just business!!

I cannot think of any dental supplier in this economy who does not offer clinical and technical product discounts.. Personally I could not care if a client provides their own teeth, components or attachments.. margins are created on labor efficiency not materials..Regarding the verbal slander of your lab...We all have had that happen it is just part of the business world and if your accounts truly value you and your work they will know this person is not professional in their behavior.

Like I said every dental supplier makes deals so you cannot single just one out...It is not very professional behavior on your behalf either..

Rob K

 

[droberts]

Brian,

In all due respect it seems to me you made a business decision based on emotion not facts... No one on this forum shared the conversation or was on the same line with supplier and dentist...Second or third hand info.. ]Every supplier who sells any dental products makes deals...[/COLOR]It is just business!!

I cannot think of any dental supplier in this economy who does not offer clinical and technical product discounts.. Personally I could not care if a client provides their own teeth, components or attachments.. margins are created on labor efficiency not materials..Regarding the verbal slander of your lab...We all have had that happen it is just part of the business world and if your accounts truly value you and your work they will know this person is not professional in their behavior.

Like I said every dental supplier makes deals so you cannot single just one out...It is not very professional behavior on your behalf either..

Rob K

Well said Rob!