Beware denture lab owners!!!!!

[hydent]

There is a denture tooth company that starts with an "I" and ends with a "clar" that will through you under the bus by not selling their teeth at their own "suggested retail price" to dentists. I recently had a dentist order his own teeth for a case and was irate that I was marking the teeth up (to their suggested retail) This is standard practice with this company ...you might want to look into it. I called Schein and they said they would absolutely never do that .......I'm just saying!!!

This is part of our limited profit on our craft without that... WE LOSE!!

 

[Wyolab]

I wonder if the Dentist would be upset if a patient brought in their own composite, and wanted the cost of the filling reduced.

 

[JohnWilson]

I have had this happen in the past where a client chooses his own teeth and sends them with the case. I always up charge them to set their teeth, and they always ask why. I explain to them when I choose a product I stand behind my choices. If I make an error I am to absorb the costs. I also explain to them how it costs me time and money to either maintain an inventory or order case by case and my time will be compensated for.

I have always understood there will be clients looking to squeeze every chance they can, I generally go and look for another client that respects my time and is happy to pay me what I am worth.

Unless you specifically asked your client to supply his teeth I say don't blame Ivoclar blame your client for going around you to save some bucks.

Remember one key thing, you are in business to make money, don't ever let your clients feel they dictate your profit margin.

 

[rkm rdt]

Well said John!

 

[hydent]

Well I have the choice to switch from Ivoclar for their unethical behavior and thats what I have done and to tell you the truth it has been so well received from my clients that I wish I would have done it years ago. I fired that account for that reason John the problem I have is him brainwashing his colleagues and other dentists that I am ripping them all off for charging suggested retail. It puts us lab owners in an awkward position and I don't feel we should ever have to explain our ethical and normal business practice to anyone. believe it or not all of my work is high end work but some of these guys get upset about that sort of thing I don't have a problem with them supplying their own teeth they have that free agency to do so. It's unethical to suggest a retail price and not charge it yourself as a supplier imo.

 

[hydent]

btw Ivoclar can have his 100 dollars a month in tooth sales I was spending 10 to 20 times that ....good business move on their part.

 

[araucaria]

There is a denture tooth company that starts with an "I" and ends with a "clar" that will through you under the bus by not selling their teeth at their own "suggested retail price" to dentists. I recently had a dentist order his own teeth for a case and was irate that I was marking the teeth up (to their suggested retail) This is standard practice with this company ...you might want to look into it. I called Schein and they said they would absolutely never do that .......I'm just saying!!!

This is part of our limited profit on our craft without that... WE LOSE!!

Did this doc ever think to put a value on his/her time when looking through catalogues, telephoning the order, checking 'goods inward', packaging the items to send to you, bank payment charges etc etc ??

Everything sold on to the next party in any profession has a mark-up. It's got to include a basic handling/management charge.

I don't think it's fair to be too mad at a company, sometimes it's just people, decisions, or a marketing plan just going awry that can cause uncomfortable problems. e.g. if you met a bulgarian you didn't get along with, should you hate all bulgarians or the nation as a whole? Sound's like this'll bite them in the a55 and lead to some changes.

 

[hydent]

Did this doc ever think to put a value on his/her time when looking through catalogues, telephoning the order, checking 'goods inward', packaging the items to send to you, bank payment charges etc etc ??

Everything sold on to the next party in any profession has a mark-up. It's got to include a basic handling/management charge.

I don't think it's fair to be too mad at a company, sometimes it's just people, decisions, or a marketing plan just going awry that can cause uncomfortable problems. e.g. if you met a bulgarian you didn't get along with, should you hate all bulgarians or the nation as a whole? Sound's like this'll bite them in the a55 and lead to some changes.

The problem with this Dr. is that his business was getting very , very slow so he thought he'd start trying to do some of his own set ups and have me process them, which I wasn't ok with to begin with. my main problem is him telling all of my other accounts that I am ripping them off in reguards to teeth. I am upset with the X-client too but Ivoclar should honor their "suggested retail price".
well you all might have a point but I still don't agree with what they did and how they handle that and for that reason they will hear very little from me. I don't hate Ivoclar I hapen to think they have some great products. but the tooth market is more competitive than ever and their teeth are not hard to beat. They need to remember that we as technitians are their best salesman so treat us fairly. You do have a point I dont hate all bulgarians LOL but seriosly I don't hate Ivoclar or their products I hate their policy on the matter it's unfair to the lab owner who is working sh!t loads of hours to make a living and then being made out to be a rip off artist.

 

[araucaria]

I understand you 100%
It's the same the world over. Squeezing a few more cents out of the deal is common. If he/she needs a few extra dollars they should put the figure on top of their price to the pt, or offer the pt choices and show them the prices of the options.
If they're so desperate for bucks then they're getting something seriously wrong with their business and should look to re-structure their sales approach/plans.
imo

 

[dmonwaxa]

It may not be all Ivoclars fault; the person taking the order may have presumed he was a lab account because the menu directs you to their department, or he may have misrepresented himself. If hes gonna stoop that low you're better off without him.Like Ive said in other posts, it seems like they're always trying to squeeze every little bit of profit you make. As for him saying to others you're ripping them off; slap him with a lawsuit for libel and defamation of character.

 

[lcmlabforum]

Not to take any side, I just like to give you a different perspective.
I an a little bit of a control freak. So I perform all my lab work up till processing.
My lab guys never have a problem with that, and most tell me I cannot pay them enough to wax things to the amount of detail I need (festooning, custom rugae, etc) and just charge me to process. I never question their charges - in fact, often call to tell them they missed charging me for adding the patient ID, etc. They generally appreciate that, and I am happy to pay them what they want to preserve my borders and anatomy: it is usually about $225 (thereabouts) to process and finish 1 unit, add pat ID, polish, and return ship. I do make all my measurements and select my own teeth, researching material combinations, shade etc. (One word about Ivoclar - if you are using Phonares - make sure you have the Phonares shade guide. There is no good conversion from the Chromoscop to the Vita line at all.) As such, they extend me the lab price since I am functioning pretty much as a lab - I create my diatorics, etc on my own. As such, if the DDS simply provides the teeth, there is still a lot of work at the lab end to prepare the teeth, remove that silly crescent (Dent_ _ _ _ you know who) or the interproximal seam left over from injection modling process before they can be used in the set up and should be reimburse as such. Goodness knows how many times a partial is so limited in space you end up trimming tooth down so much you need a new one, or the one you are trimming flew into that suction unit you just cannot open up. Maybe you can take the 'cost-of-goods-sold' factor out and charge the difference? I hope you don't feel all DDS are out to get people in the labs.
Just my 2 cents worth.
LCM

 

[dmonwaxa]

Not to take any side, I just like to give you a different perspective.
I an a little bit of a control freak. So I perform all my lab work up till processing.
My lab guys never have a problem with that, and most tell me I cannot pay them enough to wax things to the amount of detail I need (festooning, custom rugae, etc) and just charge me to process. I never question their charges - in fact, often call to tell them they missed charging me for adding the patient ID, etc. They generally appreciate that, and I am happy to pay them what they want to preserve my borders and anatomy: it is usually about $225 (thereabouts) to process and finish 1 unit, add pat ID, polish, and return ship. I do make all my measurements and select my own teeth, researching material combinations, shade etc. (One word about Ivoclar - if you are using Phonares - make sure you have the Phonares shade guide. There is no good conversion from the Chromoscop to the Vita line at all.) As such, they extend me the lab price since I am functioning pretty much as a lab - I create my diatorics, etc on my own. As such, if the DDS simply provides the teeth, there is still a lot of work at the lab end to prepare the teeth, remove that silly crescent (Dent_ _ _ _ you know who) or the interproximal seam left over from injection modling process before they can be used in the set up and should be reimburse as such. Goodness knows how many times a partial is so limited in space you end up trimming tooth down so much you need a new one, or the one you are trimming flew into that suction unit you just cannot open up. Maybe you can take the 'cost-of-goods-sold' factor out and charge the difference? I hope you don't feel all DDS are out to get people in the labs.
Just my 2 cents worth.
LCM

There seems to be very few docs like you out there. Because you do your own setups you understand the challenges and time involved, those that dont haven't a clue or know better, yet they expect deep discounts. Maybe you can enlighten your colleagues if ever the opportunity presents.

 

[hydent]

It may not be all Ivoclars fault; the person taking the order may have presumed he was a lab account because the menu directs you to their department, or he may have misrepresented himself. If hes gonna stoop that low you're better off without him.Like Ive said in other posts, it seems like they're always trying to squeeze every little bit of profit you make. As for him saying to others you're ripping them off; slap him with a lawsuit for libel and defamation of character.

I looked into that very thing because that is what I thought too, evidently its just structured that way. Now he may have missrepresented himself I don't know the circumstances there, I just know that they sell at dealer price to dentists on a regular basis. You are very much right about being better off without him he came asking me to do his work again not knowing that I knew he had been saying I was overcharging for teeth all over the place.....needless to say he was dissapointed in both my answer and my responce.

 

[dmonwaxa]

I looked into that very thing because that is what I thought too, evidently its just structured that way. Now he may have missrepresented himself I don't know the circumstances there, I just know that they sell at dealer price to dentists on a regular basis. You are very much right about being better off without him he came asking me to do his work again not knowing that I knew he had been saying I was overcharging for teeth all over the place.....needless to say he was dissapointed in both my answer and my responce.

Sad he doesnt realize the symbiotic nature of our respective chosen professions. A buzzword being thrown around lately is partner as in lab partner.But like him and many like him they dont see it that way.

 

[hydent]

Not to take any side, I just like to give you a different perspective.
I an a little bit of a control freak. So I perform all my lab work up till processing.
My lab guys never have a problem with that, and most tell me I cannot pay them enough to wax things to the amount of detail I need (festooning, custom rugae, etc) and just charge me to process. I never question their charges - in fact, often call to tell them they missed charging me for adding the patient ID, etc. They generally appreciate that, and I am happy to pay them what they want to preserve my borders and anatomy: it is usually about $225 (thereabouts) to process and finish 1 unit, add pat ID, polish, and return ship. I do make all my measurements and select my own teeth, researching material combinations, shade etc. (One word about Ivoclar - if you are using Phonares - make sure you have the Phonares shade guide. There is no good conversion from the Chromoscop to the Vita line at all.) As such, they extend me the lab price since I am functioning pretty much as a lab - I create my diatorics, etc on my own. As such, if the DDS simply provides the teeth, there is still a lot of work at the lab end to prepare the teeth, remove that silly crescent (Dent_ _ _ _ you know who) or the interproximal seam left over from injection modling process before they can be used in the set up and should be reimburse as such. Goodness knows how many times a partial is so limited in space you end up trimming tooth down so much you need a new one, or the one you are trimming flew into that suction unit you just cannot open up. Maybe you can take the 'cost-of-goods-sold' factor out and charge the difference? I hope you don't feel all DDS are out to get people in the labs.
Just my 2 cents worth.
LCM

I absolutlely don't think all dentists are out to get people in the lab business as a matter of fact to date I have had nothing but pleasent dealings with Drs with exception of him. I also don't have a problem with dentists setting their own teeth I just don't except that type of client in my laboratory it's not personal , I just don't have room in my schedule for that type of piece work. All good points you all bring up though thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[hydent]

There seems to be very few docs like you out there. Because you do your own setups you understand the challenges and time involved, those that dont haven't a clue or know better, yet they expect deep discounts. Maybe you can enlighten your colleagues if ever the opportunity presents.

Amen brother!

 

[lcmlabforum]

I looked into that very thing because that is what I thought too, evidently its just structured that way. Now he may have missrepresented himself I don't know the circumstances there, I just know that they sell at dealer price to dentists on a regular basis. You are very much right about being better off without him he came asking me to do his work again not knowing that I knew he had been saying I was overcharging for teeth all over the place.....needless to say he was dissapointed in both my answer and my responce.

If he is genuinely remorseful and is willing to explain to those others he mentioned (sometimes people just like to complain, but there is complain with a vengeance vs. complain with a smile) the whole pricing situation - this might be an opportunity to have a educational opportunity to show their study club or something what you bring to the table. Yah, I am idealistic and overly positive, but we should always hope, right?
Trust me, if you read dental economics and other journals and on-line report, many dental clinics have been hit hard by the down turn in the economy. There are some genuinely in need to cut costs. Just saying, everyone should have a second chance, right?
LCM

 

[hydent]

If he is genuinely remorseful and is willing to explain to those others he mentioned (sometimes people just like to complain, but there is complain with a vengeance vs. complain with a smile) the whole pricing situation - this might be an opportunity to have a educational opportunity to show their study club or something what you bring to the table. Yah, I am idealistic and overly positive, but we should always hope, right?
Trust me, if you read dental economics and other journals and on-line report, many dental clinics have been hit hard by the down turn in the economy. There are some genuinely in need to cut costs. Just saying, everyone should have a second chance, right?
LCM

I don't see any oportunity for ever, ever, ever, having any deelings with him again. It's bad enough I have to see him when I deliver to the other dentists in the office.

I get the whole dental economics thing and realize it's a problem but lets not try to drag others down too , lets not make your problems someone elses. I agree that there is a place for second chances ...this is definatly not one of them LOL. I'd rather mow grass or shovel sh!t than work for someone who tries to drag me down, I have 2 little ones to feed and 1 on the way the last thing I need is someone trying to damage the good reputation that I have worked so hard for.

 

[AJEL]

In my accounting program there is a lab supplied teeth set up and a DDS supplied teeth set-up charge. I charge for each step I do, if a DDS wants me to wax-up & process from their set-up well the accounting program has a line for this, (around 35% higher) I also note in the invoice & statement that there is no warranty on DDS supplied materials. (teeth, frameworks, attachments, set-up's {full charge for reset}. As removables can at times go over a statement I like charging as I go to get cash flow as best I can.

 

[dmonwaxa]

If he is genuinely remorseful and is willing to explain to those others he mentioned (sometimes people just like to complain, but there is complain with a vengeance vs. complain with a smile) the whole pricing situation - this might be an opportunity to have a educational opportunity to show their study club or something what you bring to the table. Yah, I am idealistic and overly positive, but we should always hope, right?
Trust me, if you read dental economics and other journals and on-line report, many dental clinics have been hit hard by the down turn in the economy. There are some genuinely in need to cut costs. Just saying, everyone should have a second chance, right?
LCM

Yes every one deserves a second chance, so the saying goes. But there are others; dont bite the hands that feed you, or another, dont burn bridges. I would certainly like to believe someone with that level of education would not have ventured down that road being so malicious and coothless.... not quite a word I know, but fitting nontheless.

As a side note the day providers and technicians get together an talk pricing,,, that'll be the day. Hypothetically speaking, seems to me though when a provider charges 5K for a denture and the lab charges 500, theres an issue, and the labs are asked (bullied) into lowering prices so the practice can be more profitable. What about the labs profit? Somehow cost cutting always seem to be centered around the lab, whom some how always manage to be in the line of fire.