Beef with WhipMix RE: PRO100

[JMN]

Affinity, et All,
You don't know me, which is too bad. If you did then you would know that I've been a technician for nearly 40 years, owned my own laboratory, worked for large and small labs and for manufacturers as well and spent much of that time advocating for technicians and their concerns, and even recognized for some of those efforts by the NADL. I have a lifetime wealth of experience that gives me some perspective that many who sit at a bench for all their lives do not have. Giving you information so that you can be better informed does not make me any less technician and more a politician. I told you I would get back to you with more information today, so just hang on to your socks, and have a bit of patience. As for the family... you may have some personal beef with them, but they have provided successful products for our industry for 4 generations of Dental Technicians. Perhaps you all have forgotten the mega failures of some of the current "Stars" whose products you now drop accolades upon.... History is a powerful thing if you pay attention. I'm not saying that every product has worked perfectly from our Company either, but the majority have and we continue to find ways to improve your lives.
By the way, I put my name on these posts for everyone to see and identify. It's interesting to me that many hide behind some moniker so that they can remain anonymous in their criticisms.
Back later with real answers.

Ya got me on a bad day, and I do apologize. I was unaware that politician had become a 'charge' instead of a job description. Helping in the best way requires us to read before posting. He did contact tech support, and that was the *origin* of the issue, not the end.

Thanks for bringing another view, and more experience to the table. No one is their best at all times, you, me, all of us. We may argue, but we still sit down together.

 

[capickettcdt]

All,
As promised...here is some information. It's all correct so you can decide;
Zubler Vario Press - This machine was designed and manufactured by Intratech for Zubler (not the other way around). It is the original PRO 100 PRESS with a different OVERLAY that reflects Zubler. (remember that there were also successful PRO 90's before that)
Intratech was purchased by Whip Mix to gain entry into the porcelain furnace market. The Intratech machines carried both of the names for a time and then became the Whip Mix PRO 100.
PRO BLEND- vacuum mixing machine - (someone referred to it as a POS) This was the first generation of hands free mixing (yes there were others in this generation). I worked with one for a few years too. If you want to compare this to the Combination units that many of you grew up on, other than they were both mixers it's a bad comparison as they operated completely differently internally. After intense use we found that some of the original plastics used wore too quickly and we replaced for FREE those parts for many years, but ultimately stopped as we were developing the second generation of hands free mixers the VPM2. This past year we finally ran out of the injection molded lids which were unique to this machine and so stopped making the paddle shaft and the unique drive nut. We offered a trade in on this machine for a new VPM2 for a couple of years. If all you need is the bowl, it is the same bowl that is used for the Combination unit, the Ortho Power Mixer and the Power Mixer and it is still available.
As to the RENFERT comments. They make solid products. They did however have the advantage of looking at first generation machines and then improving on what they saw. Good for RENFERT. Our second generation is also better.
VPM2 - Some of you don't like that machine...so be it. But it works consistently every day in the practical lab at Whip Mix and in hundreds of labs across the world. Does it have the same power as a combination unit? No. Can you abuse it as badly as some of the labs do their Combination units and still have it operate correctly? No. They are different animals, but you have a choice.
PRO 100 SERIES- If the problem was that you lost the software Colonel, that could have been remedied by the purchase of a 'Blue Box' to reinstall the software (if you don't change your battery on the logic board, and your power fails or you turn off the machine you can lose the software...it's in the manual so don't forget to change them),this is what Garland will send you and so could we but it is still a couple hundred bucks. If your logic board has failed, we have a few left at about six hundred but are you sure that you want to put that kind of money into a furnace that has been out of production since 09?? You are right, you can not up-grade via PC and Cable on this machine. That technology was not available when it was designed (it is available on the Pro 200 series). The Blue box hooks to a nine pin printer port on the side of the machine for import of the OS.
Many technicians have opted to upgrade their equipment at end of life and we offered them $300 as a rebate to help with that on an outdated piece of machinery (what's the value of a 7-10 year old computer right now?) You are welcome to call ahead and get some parts, but at some point you replace machines. Each machine in your lab should have an ROI and you should know when you are close to getting a new unit and keeping the old worker as a back-up.
Update for those of you who have JELRUS porcelain furnaces. No longer available from the manufacturer and have not been for several years. Also no parts. They asked us if we wanted the line but we declined and they stopped manufacturing the products. Those of you who have them...don't get mad...get prepared.
We did purchase the Burn Out Furnaces which have a long history in our industry (originally they were the JELENKO furnaces manufactured for Jelenko by Jelrus, then they came out on their own and then they were purchased by Air Techniques and now with a redesign of the electronics by Whip Mix they are even better)
Customer Technical Support -As to why alternative information was not provided for you...I do not know. That has been addressed as of this morning and we will improve how we help you in the future. Please know that there are two avenues at Whip Mix....TOPS or Technical support on ovens and furnaces and TECHNICAL SUPPORT on everything which is staffed with "Old Dental Technicians". The TOPS folks are electronics and hardware folks and are great with the machines. In TECHNICAL SUPPORT we work hand in hand with them to answer issues that you may have. For example it might be a ceramic technique and not the oven that is a problem. If you are not getting an answer, let us go to bat for you. We can not always go in your favor, but we will give you all of the straight information and refer you to wherever we think you can get more help.
Anonymous- I get it with Ben Franklin...the English would have had his head...Mark Twain, I'm not so sure that he needed it ...but OK.
On A Personal Note - A simple story. This summer my 2001 Dodge Intreped's engine started knocking (I did have the great 8 that worked not the 6 that didn't). While I truly hoped that it was just noisy lifters... that was not the case and confirmed by a local mechanic (Dodge wasn't interested) who said, "I'm not so sure you'll get it home". A good rebuild was $6000...would that be worth doing on a car that blue booked at $2000 in pristine shape? I took it to the Ford dealer and was able to get a total of $200 on a trade-in (it died 3 time going across the street to their mechanic and 3 times coming back). I may have thought that it had a lot of life left (body was good and interior was perfect and only had 65 thousand miles) or at least a $500 auction value...but reality is a...real problem sometimes.
I had just put $800 of new Michelins on it 3 months earlier and that was a sore spot for me, but I got a good deal on a new car and $200 back for one that had served well and was at end of life.
I/We are happy to take good criticism when we disappoint (and thanks for the kudos) and we will do our best to make things right if it is something that we can do. We expect you to call us and let us know what your pain points are and believe me, we'll be there with you the best we can...we have lived it too.

Thanks all...hope that this answered a few questions. Affinity...if you wish, please call me and we will help. 800-626-5651 x 1275

 

[sndmn2]

I have a " Blue Box " if you think it will help you.. I also have a "Red" one. I think the Red was for transferring programs. Perhaps the previous poster can shed some light on the Red one. I have 3 Whipmix ovens.. Intatech Propress 100
from about 99 or 2000. a Pro100 from about 2003 and another Propress 100 from about the same time..WhipMix will usually just send me a part when needed. Anything that needs soldering I just take to the local computer repair place to have done.

 

[Zubler USA]

HOLY CRAP! Sorry I'm late to the party! WOW! I was going to bed and got an email from a college alerting me to this thread! There is nothing like being misquoted. Affinity I appreciate the plug, but Like I am sure I told you on the phone. I wrote the service manuals for the ovens. Yes I know a lot about them, but I can't help you because I do not have the tool you need in this instance. So you all know, they are NOT Zubler ovens. Yes they were Engineered, designed and manufactured in TEXAS by IntraTech. Private labeled by Zubler in Germany for the European market until ZUBLER designed the VARIO 300 series by themselves. There is a lot more to the story...but it is really not that interesting.

In regards to your Pro 100. I suspect the firmware you are referring to is the Kernal meaning you probably turned off the unit and the battery on the board was dead. When you turned the oven back on....All you saw were squares across the display...Another good reason to never turn off the oven. If you don't turn off the oven.. the battery does not get used and this never happens.

Garland dental is the ONLY other place besides Whipmix that has a Kernal loader because they were the first support center for IntraTech ovens before IntraTech had their own service center.

Have fun with Daniel, he is a nice guy. He will help your with your oven...while trying to sell you an Ibex I am sure...

Sorry Daniel..had to.

If anyone else wnats to quote me...please do me the coutesy of copying me on the thread... thanks see ya'll in Chicago.

Chris.

 

[Zubler USA]

All,
As promised...here is some information. It's all correct so you can decide;
Zubler Vario Press - This machine was designed and manufactured by Intratech for Zubler (not the other way around). It is the original PRO 100 PRESS with a different OVERLAY that reflects Zubler. (remember that there were also successful PRO 90's before that)
Intratech was purchased by Whip Mix to gain entry into the porcelain furnace market. The Intratech machines carried both of the names for a time and then became the Whip Mix PRO 100.
PRO BLEND- vacuum mixing machine - (someone referred to it as a POS) This was the first generation of hands free mixing (yes there were others in this generation). I worked with one for a few years too. If you want to compare this to the Combination units that many of you grew up on, other than they were both mixers it's a bad comparison as they operated completely differently internally. After intense use we found that some of the original plastics used wore too quickly and we replaced for FREE those parts for many years, but ultimately stopped as we were developing the second generation of hands free mixers the VPM2. This past year we finally ran out of the injection molded lids which were unique to this machine and so stopped making the paddle shaft and the unique drive nut. We offered a trade in on this machine for a new VPM2 for a couple of years. If all you need is the bowl, it is the same bowl that is used for the Combination unit, the Ortho Power Mixer and the Power Mixer and it is still available.
As to the RENFERT comments. They make solid products. They did however have the advantage of looking at first generation machines and then improving on what they saw. Good for RENFERT. Our second generation is also better.
VPM2 - Some of you don't like that machine...so be it. But it works consistently every day in the practical lab at Whip Mix and in hundreds of labs across the world. Does it have the same power as a combination unit? No. Can you abuse it as badly as some of the labs do their Combination units and still have it operate correctly? No. They are different animals, but you have a choice.
PRO 100 SERIES- If the problem was that you lost the software Colonel, that could have been remedied by the purchase of a 'Blue Box' to reinstall the software (if you don't change your battery on the logic board, and your power fails or you turn off the machine you can lose the software...it's in the manual so don't forget to change them),this is what Garland will send you and so could we but it is still a couple hundred bucks. If your logic board has failed, we have a few left at about six hundred but are you sure that you want to put that kind of money into a furnace that has been out of production since 09?? You are right, you can not up-grade via PC and Cable on this machine. That technology was not available when it was designed (it is available on the Pro 200 series). The Blue box hooks to a nine pin printer port on the side of the machine for import of the OS.
Many technicians have opted to upgrade their equipment at end of life and we offered them $300 as a rebate to help with that on an outdated piece of machinery (what's the value of a 7-10 year old computer right now?) You are welcome to call ahead and get some parts, but at some point you replace machines. Each machine in your lab should have an ROI and you should know when you are close to getting a new unit and keeping the old worker as a back-up.
Update for those of you who have JELRUS porcelain furnaces. No longer available from the manufacturer and have not been for several years. Also no parts. They asked us if we wanted the line but we declined and they stopped manufacturing the products. Those of you who have them...don't get mad...get prepared.
We did purchase the Burn Out Furnaces which have a long history in our industry (originally they were the JELENKO furnaces manufactured for Jelenko by Jelrus, then they came out on their own and then they were purchased by Air Techniques and now with a redesign of the electronics by Whip Mix they are even better)
Customer Technical Support -As to why alternative information was not provided for you...I do not know. That has been addressed as of this morning and we will improve how we help you in the future. Please know that there are two avenues at Whip Mix....TOPS or Technical support on ovens and furnaces and TECHNICAL SUPPORT on everything which is staffed with "Old Dental Technicians". The TOPS folks are electronics and hardware folks and are great with the machines. In TECHNICAL SUPPORT we work hand in hand with them to answer issues that you may have. For example it might be a ceramic technique and not the oven that is a problem. If you are not getting an answer, let us go to bat for you. We can not always go in your favor, but we will give you all of the straight information and refer you to wherever we think you can get more help.
Anonymous- I get it with Ben Franklin...the English would have had his head...Mark Twain, I'm not so sure that he needed it ...but OK.
On A Personal Note - A simple story. This summer my 2001 Dodge Intreped's engine started knocking (I did have the great 8 that worked not the 6 that didn't). While I truly hoped that it was just noisy lifters... that was not the case and confirmed by a local mechanic (Dodge wasn't interested) who said, "I'm not so sure you'll get it home". A good rebuild was $6000...would that be worth doing on a car that blue booked at $2000 in pristine shape? I took it to the Ford dealer and was able to get a total of $200 on a trade-in (it died 3 time going across the street to their mechanic and 3 times coming back). I may have thought that it had a lot of life left (body was good and interior was perfect and only had 65 thousand miles) or at least a $500 auction value...but reality is a...real problem sometimes.
I had just put $800 of new Michelins on it 3 months earlier and that was a sore spot for me, but I got a good deal on a new car and $200 back for one that had served well and was at end of life.
I/We are happy to take good criticism when we disappoint (and thanks for the kudos) and we will do our best to make things right if it is something that we can do. We expect you to call us and let us know what your pain points are and believe me, we'll be there with you the best we can...we have lived it too.

Thanks all...hope that this answered a few questions. Affinity...if you wish, please call me and we will help. 800-626-5651 x 1275

Hi Craig, The Blue box will not solve the problem if he has lost the Kernal. The blue box only loads software updates. The battery supports the firmware (Kernal) on the board. You have to have a Kernal Loader (Like they used to have in Engineering at DH's desk to load the Kernal.)

Intratech Private labeled the VARIO PRESS 100, but not the 300. Just wanted that to be clear.

See you Chicago.. Hope you have a good show.

 

[sndmn2]

Can someone reference what battery is used in these ovens and an install procedure? I've never changed one.

 

[JMN]

Hi Craig, The Blue box will not solve the problem if he has lost the Kernal. The blue box only loads software updates. The battery supports the firmware (Kernal) on the board. You have to have a Kernal Loader (Like they used to have in Engineering at DH's desk to load the Kernal.)

Intratech Private labeled the VARIO PRESS 100, but not the 300. Just wanted that to be clear.

See you Chicago.. Hope you have a good show.

I guess NVROM was not possible then? Wow how far we've come! (seriously!)

 

[Zubler USA]

Can someone reference what battery is used in these ovens and an install procedure? I've never changed one.

Just leave your furnace on. If you turn the oven off and remove the battery it will cause the problem. If you try and change it with the power on, you can short to ground and cause the same problem. Put your oven in night mode when you leave. NEVER turn your oven off. THe battery is a back up for when you lose power. that is it.

 

[Zubler USA]

I guess NVROM was not possible then? Wow how far we've come! (seriously!)

Mid 90's design.

 

[zero_zero]

Mid 90's design.

EEPROM must've been very expensive back then...

 

[Zubler USA]

Not sure what the engineering rational was, I assume expense, functionallity or availabilty had to be issues. I know the engineer that worked on the oven. He is a brilliant guy. I am sure he had his reasons. You must admit, he made a popular oven. With a design that lasted 20 years. Back when he designed the oven we were using modems and Windows 3.1. The internet was just a bunch of chat rooms and cell phones were the size of a shoe and expensive without text, vm or data! We've come a long way indeed.

 

[Affinity]

First, i apologize to chris, I assumed something that wasnt right regarding who developed the oven. It really had nothing to do with any of this anyway. The PRO 100 looks like a chevy cavalier sitting next to my german zubler 300 anyway.

Other than that, Carl its unfortunate that I have to post to a public forum to get an answer to my questions, but it does work well. My intent wasnt to slam whipmix but to let other hard-working techs know what to expect when they spend their money.
As far as anonymity, should I post my address and phone number here so as to have a valid point? Tech support didnt seem to care what my name was when I called.. I was never referred to anyone, including you, never asked my name, my lab name (or moniker as you put it) or a way to contact me. That seems like something a company with 4 generations of experience should care about.

I was simply looking for help with my oven.. if WM cant provide that, then Im coming here to ask.

I have had this oven for probably 6-7 years.. I paid $1375 for it used, with pump. It worked great and it was only used lightly, I then paid $1000 for a 220v muffle and power board and used it in europe for 2 years. I moved back and put the 110v muffle and board in and it worked for awhile, but was having issues with having
2 ovens on the same line, so I moved it. After, it wouldnt power up so I tested all the fuses and the battery, one fuse was dead so i replaced it, tunrned it on then I got the black bars, clicking servos.. Call whipmix and was told I need to reinstall kernal, but that they wont service it, only sell me a new board for $650.
Now, its easy for a sales or tech rep to quote ROI and keeping your equipment updated, especially when you arent buying equipment, but to trash a perfectly fine oven or suggest buying an expensive board it might not even need, sounds absurd to me. This is truly an american concept because we are a throwaway culture. Im also not suggesting I want to be using an orange commodore either.. but if something has life in it, heck yeah im gonna use every bit of it.

 

[Affinity]

Parts need space and that costs money. How much floor space should Whip Mix devote to obsolete products they no longer make?

Whip Mix was making great products when everyone here was wearing three cornered pants and crapping yellow.

Upgrade every once in a while and quit crying about Whip Mix not underwriting and financing your thriftiness.

Still pushing the boundaries of obscure irrelevance. This isnt about being cheap or upgrading an old oven but thanks for the yellow crap imagery.

Lets all think about this scenario: when the $2 battery that is in every pro100 eventually dies, the ovens lose the firmware upon turning it off, you just throw the oven away? Or call the company that made it for help? Am I being unreasonable??

 

[capickettcdt]

The offer for help still stands

 

[capickettcdt]

Can someone reference what battery is used in these ovens and an install procedure? I've never changed one.

Please e-mail me at [email protected] and I will send you the procedure

 

[vurban210]

Am I being unreasonable??

Not at all.

 

[JohnWilson]

I have about 6 of these ovens in storage if you need to pirate some parts off of a couple donors just let me know.

 

[FRITS]

Still pushing the boundaries of obscure irrelevance. This isnt about being cheap or upgrading an old oven but thanks for the yellow crap imagery.

Lets all think about this scenario: when the $2 battery that is in every pro100 eventually dies, the ovens lose the firmware upon turning it off, you just throw the oven away? Or call the company that made it for help? Am I being unreasonable??

Hi my friend! I'm from Ukraine.
I also have Zubler vario press 100. Have you solved the problem?

 

[Zubler USA]

Hi Fritz,

If you lost the firmware, the only solution for you would be to contact Zubler GmBh in Germany. They might have access to a Kernal loader. However, this technology is so old, the parts to support the Kernal loader itself probably are not produced any longer. All this is Circa, MId to late 90's tech.

If you need other parts replaced. Then again, I encourage you to get in touch with Zubler GmBh in Germany.

Their website: www.zubler.de

Good luck Fritz, hope the staff in Germany can help.

 

[Rex Kramer]

This is just a public service announcement.........snip....
I would not recommend anyone to purchase one of their ovens with that kind of support. End rant.

Welcome to the club...anyone else have 20k worth of Dicor gear lying around? Dentsply sold me one and stopped support the following year...... was making 'Willi Glass' with it at the time, still pissed at them. Mines at the bottom of the lake with a bouy attached to it....makes a nice anchor

Oh and yea I have a decades old pro100 still working strong.... replaced muffle on it, battery, etc but that was a while ago....