A Million CAM Options!

[DavidUK]

Hi folks,

Just signed up to try and get a little advice on the various milling machine options as there are so many and I don't know what's best!

A little background: we are a smallish laboratory that does approx. 50/50 metal-ceramic and all-ceramic work. We have had a 3Shape D700 scanner since 2010 and have recently added a new D2000 to go alongside it. Until now we have outsourced all of our work to milling centres, but feel the time has now come to start milling most things ourselves due to the added control, flexibility and - ultimately, cost savings this would bring.

We are looking at having the option to mill pretty much all the common materials - Zirconia, glass ceramics, PMMA, wax, PEEK and maybe even Titanium and CoCr. One thing in particular that we would like to start milling are the Prettau-style bridges. We also do quite a bit of Zirconia with angled implant screw channels and I am aware that these can prove problematic to mill. Will most 5-axis machines cope?

We've primarily been looking at the Zirkonzahn (M1 Wet Heavy Metal) and Amann Girrbach (Ceramill Motion 2) systems, but am aware that some other well-known names such as Roland, VHF and Wieland etc. may well also be worth looking into.

With the Zirkonzahn machine would it be worth also getting their design software? Whilst we love our 3Shapes, having another option in the lab can be no bad thing and, despite having never used it, the Exocad-based software looks excellent. The only thing that concerns me with the Zirkonzahn is that the quote we have been given for it is as a 'closed' system in that only their own (presumably expensive) pucks are compatible. Fair enough if their Prettau Zirconia is pricey as it's a premium product, but we don't want to be stuck paying a fortune for wax pucks, for example. How is the system 'locked' anyway? Is it just a case of the pucks being an odd size?

Many thanks in advance and apologies if any of the questions are stupid - this is a very steep learning curve!

 

[keith goldstein]

I run a components business and am not a dental lab. My clients are dental labs and many have zirkonzahn and most love the capabilities. What they hate.which you brought up, is the "closed system". They can't use other components and materials as freely as they could with an open scanner and mill. Strategically and economically over the next few years you will have so many options for different materials and components that the last thing you want is to have your hands tied by a "business decision" of the vendor dictating where you can or cannot purchase materials from.
I am sure both milling machines can handle blocks of titanium with premilled interfaces but I would not use them for titanium bars.
Neither can compare to the Agie Charmilles Mikron machines that are used by the implant companies who mill out bars in terms of accuracy, tolerances, and fit.

 

[rkm rdt]

I would stay away from any closed system. Never again!

 

[2thm8kr]

If you like freedom to make your own choices. Don't get attached to a closed system.......
The Future is Open!

 

[adl]

You are going to pay more for an open system but at the end of the day you'll be much happier. Support is also essential.

 

[Omar B. Hansson]

Dear David,
I see that that am not the only person having hard time sellecting milling unit. As you have a open system for the scanner you should stick with a open cam system to.

You are going to pay more for an open system but at the end of the day you'll be much happier. Support is also essential.

For a closed system you usually you have to buy their material.

 

[adl]

Dear David,
I see that that am not the only person having hard time sellecting milling unit. As you have a open system for the scanner you should stick with a open cam system to.

For a closed system you usually you have to buy their material.

Very true

 

[Omar B. Hansson]

Hi folks,

Just signed up to try and get a little advice on the various milling machine options as there are so many and I don't know what's best!

A little background: we are a smallish laboratory that does approx. 50/50 metal-ceramic and all-ceramic work. We have had a 3Shape D700 scanner since 2010 and have recently added a new D2000 to go alongside it. Until now we have outsourced all of our work to milling centres, but feel the time has now come to start milling most things ourselves due to the added control, flexibility and - ultimately, cost savings this would bring.

We are looking at having the option to mill pretty much all the common materials - Zirconia, glass ceramics, PMMA, wax, PEEK and maybe even Titanium and CoCr. One thing in particular that we would like to start milling are the Prettau-style bridges. We also do quite a bit of Zirconia with angled implant screw channels and I am aware that these can prove problematic to mill. Will most 5-axis machines cope?

We've primarily been looking at the Zirkonzahn (M1 Wet Heavy Metal) and Amann Girrbach (Ceramill Motion 2) systems, but am aware that some other well-known names such as Roland, VHF and Wieland etc. may well also be worth looking into.

With the Zirkonzahn machine would it be worth also getting their design software? Whilst we love our 3Shapes, having another option in the lab can be no bad thing and, despite having never used it, the Exocad-based software looks excellent. The only thing that concerns me with the Zirkonzahn is that the quote we have been given for it is as a 'closed' system in that only their own (presumably expensive) pucks are compatible. Fair enough if their Prettau Zirconia is pricey as it's a premium product, but we don't want to be stuck paying a fortune for wax pucks, for example. How is the system 'locked' anyway? Is it just a case of the pucks being an odd size?

Many thanks in advance and apologies if any of the questions are stupid - this is a very steep learning curve!

David,
Stick to a open system. You all ready have the scanner which are open and a good cad to. I am using 3shape 700 and DOF scanner with exocad. A milling unit from Rolland the DWX 50. It is 3 years old know and running fine for soft material. But now I like to mill metal to, mainly the prefaced implant abutments so I have been looking in to this heavily lately. The Imes-icore 350I is on the list. We are testing the M1 and there scanner but I do not like it. Just like you said it is closed system.

 

[zero_zero]

Avoid closed systems like the plague...

 

[DavidUK]

Hi guys,

Thank you for all of the replies so far; they're very informative! I must say, with pretty much everyone saying to steer well clear of a closed system, it has somewhat put me off the idea.

The thing with the quote we have had from Zirkonzahn is that they do also offer it as an open machine, but for €10,000 more than if it is closed. Clearly, to make up the €10,000 with the cost difference between Zirkonzahn's expensive pucks and someone else's cheaper ones, it is a lot of milling, but if in future we will be restricted by not being able to offer new materials etc. then it's a problem.

One thing that does attract me to the Zirkonzahn machine is that you can lease it for a fixed monthly fee, which is certainly a very good thing for a number of reasons. Sadly it is obviously a closed machine when leased, but my understanding is that at any time you can buy the machine and have it unlocked if you wish.

I agree that support is important with these machines and even getting quotes and technical explanations from Zirkonzahn hasn't been the easiest thing in the world, so that's definitely a bad point.

Lastly, I see that the imes-icore 350i is meant to be good, so that's another one to add to the list! I believe Core3dcentres sell them, which is handy as I know them very well.

 

[charles007]

Scratch off anything Closed unless your rolling in $$ and don't mind buying a new mill when the next new material comes out.
Your in the UK... here in the US our opinions may not suite your needs. You want the best support possible and parts, so rule out any mill that's weak in your country.
Add the Yenadent mill to your list if its available.
It sounds like you may need 2 mills, one for dry milling zirconia and there are many to choose from, and a wet mill.
Sharing your number of units will help get better opinions..

 

[le-ant]

No yenadent dealer yet in the UK however they will be at the dental show in April.If yenadent had local support in the UK I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of their machines. Techceram also sell imes in the UK and they're nice to deal with. Techceram also service imes, and they use them daily so their support should be top notch for both hardware and software.