VHF new mill

Car 54

Car 54

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Excellent follow up, Kent. I know that Wieland compresses their pucks from all sides (that I'm aware of),making it really dense and heavy, so it sounds like that would make a difference.
 
JohnWilson

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I struggled a bit with whether or not to offer two cents here but decided, heck why not?

The specs, at least the ones that are actually published, (a bit of a pet peeve of mine) look a bit light to me.

Maybe I am missing something but with only a 300 watt spindle (S1/continuous) and most curious of all: "Collet chuck pneumatically for tools with 3 mm shank diameter and max. 40 mm total length"

I personal would not consider this machine top of the line. Especially when compared to our Versamills.

The choice of components and configuration of this machine is a bit curious to me. One one hand, according to published information I was able find, the mill appears to tick some boxes for frame and guide system.

However a 300 watt sindle and 3mm tooling will significantly limit the performance of any machine tool.

Here this mill appears to be a bit of an engigma. On one hand, a low power spindle such as this would be easy to stall when taking "heavier" cuts but on the other hand a tool with only a 3mm shank would snap pretty easily under a load that a 300 watt spindle could present (especially if cuttting parameters such as rpm, federate,depth of cut, machining strategy, etc. are not optimized).

Also, based not these specs I just don't see it effectively processing CoCr in any form other than presintered.

Just one guys opinion and YMMV...

When did it become wrong to embellish the ability of any machine? LOL

The original VHF had many videos made where they were milling chrome dry. Would I attempt that? Hell no it would eat up tools and not be cost effective by any means of the word. Can it do it? Yeah but for how long.... it certainly was not designed for that.

Go look at the specs on the original S2 that we call the "Select" and you will see similar numbers. While some may scoff at the shank size of tools, we break very few, and this is after I have ramped up and modified the preinstalled milling strats. One benefit I can tell you is the cost of the tools I buy in this configuration is SUBSTANTIALLY less than a more stout shanked tool.

Now I am not going to bat for anything other than a company that I have had very good luck with, I certainly think they have learned a thing or two and have no doubt this machine will do well for the VAST majority of restorations milled dry.

My only contention was the end play on such a long tool for the excessive reach needed and thats what I found interesting and wonder how deflection will come into play.

Seven as for the 35* that 5 degrees more than the select "stock" but I can show you how to increase the select to 37* "At least on paper cause I never void my warranties" Wink Wink.
 
KentPWalton

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John...also at those angulations, you'll eat up a whole puck to clear area to be able to reach the restoration being milled. Small bur, light depth of cut, high spindle speed.
 
JohnWilson

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John...also at those angulations, you'll eat up a whole puck to clear area to be able to reach the restoration being milled. Small bur, light depth of cut, high spindle speed.

Yeah I agree but for a case where we have wild angles to fixtures for full arch work we are using the entire disk at the moment any how. I have a ton of horseshoe 25 mm disks waiting for that tall ass single that will eventually come through this lab :)

The sintering brace is what I am always pissed off about the waste :)


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TheLabGuy

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40mm....that would be great for surgical guides, especially bone screwed where if you have a large ridge, this would work.

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GeneNY

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John do u know the price of this mill?
 
brayks

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When did it become wrong to embellish the ability of any machine? LOL

The original VHF had many videos made where they were milling chrome dry. Would I attempt that? Hell no it would eat up tools and not be cost effective by any means of the word. Can it do it? Yeah but for how long.... it certainly was not designed for that.

Go look at the specs on the original S2 that we call the "Select" and you will see similar numbers. While some may scoff at the shank size of tools, we break very few, and this is after I have ramped up and modified the preinstalled milling strats. One benefit I can tell you is the cost of the tools I buy in this configuration is SUBSTANTIALLY less than a more stout shanked tool.

Now I am not going to bat for anything other than a company that I have had very good luck with, I certainly think they have learned a thing or two and have no doubt this machine will do well for the VAST majority of restorations milled dry.

My only contention was the end play on such a long tool for the excessive reach needed and thats what I found interesting and wonder how deflection will come into play.

Seven as for the 35* that 5 degrees more than the select "stock" but I can show you how to increase the select to 37* "At least on paper cause I never void my warranties" Wink Wink.

Yeah John I get all that and your tongue-in-cheek comment on "marketing embellishments" . ;) That's the stuff that gets me a bit riled up and is pretty common in marketing dental mills. Banghead

You bring up some good points and its cool that you seem to have good luck with the smaller shank tools and I'm sure you are not alone. I can only say that does not make up the lion's share of my experience (and that of my customers) who are less fortunate to the point I would not recommend them. Of course there are many factors that can mitigate success including non-machine related issues (like design topology, indications, CAM Software toolpath quality, leads/links, climb vs conventional cutting, depth of cut, step-over, poor parameters etc.) and machine related issues such as frame, fixturing and the biggies of: spindle, tool concentricity/run-out and production requirements that require high SFM for minimum cycle time.

A very important spec to consider for these types of tools tool run-out and as you rightly mentioned, tool deflection which is significantly more prominent in a 3mm shank tool and actually forces the tool to bend. I'm sure you know this, but the sake of those who do not, like a paperclip, if bent back and forth too much, it will break. If the tool bends more deeply into the cut, it can increase chipload to the point the tool generally breaks immediately or tool life suffers as a result of constant pounding, engaging, disengaging of the cutting flutes. The bending means the tool won’t follow the toolpath that was intended, which can lead to all manner of problems. Other problems include shorter tool life, decreased accuracy and poorer surface finish.

5d7f64a4-bb6f-47f2-a62f-42b40386c9e1_zpshxofgoqz.jpg

From a purely theoretical stand point rigidity increases as the 4th power of diameter and deceases as the 3rd power of length.

A 3mm shank tool is 3X less rigid than a 4mm shank tool. As an example if you had a 3mm shank 2mm ball end mill sticking out 30mm performing a roughing operation at 18000 rpm at 13000 m/min with a depth of cut of .5 and width of cut of 1.2mm, tool deflection would on the order of .12mm. Deflection of a 4mm would be almost 10X less.

Please understand that I am not trying to disparage any machine. My intent is to merely point out the importance of particular specifications and why they are important. My thought is that this information and that from any follow up discussions would better educate those looking to implement a CNC dental mill.

I believe this can enable new adopters to make more informed decisions and pay a little less attention to the "marketing embellishments" or at least be able to identify them. Beer
 
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Sevan P

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Yeah John I get all that and your tongue-in-cheek comment on "marketing embellishments" . ;) That's the stuff that gets me a bit riled up and is pretty common in marketing dental mills. Banghead

You bring up some good points and its cool that you seem to have good luck with the smaller shank tools and I'm sure you are not alone. I can only say that does not make up the lion's share of my experience (and that of my customers) who are less fortunate to the point I would not recommend them. Of course there are many factors that can mitigate success including non-machine related issues (like design topology, indications, CAM Software toolpath quality, leads/links, climb vs conventional cutting, depth of cut, step-over, poor parameters etc.) and machine related issues such as frame, fixturing and the biggies of: spindle, tool concentricity/run-out and production requirements that require high SFM for minimum cycle time.

A very important spec to consider for these types of tools tool run-out and as you rightly mentioned, tool deflection which is significantly more prominent in a 3mm shank tool and actually forces the tool to bend. I'm sure you know this, but the sake of those who do not, like a paperclip, if bent back and forth too much, it will break. If the tool bends more deeply into the cut, it can increase chipload to the point the tool generally breaks immediately or tool life suffers as a result of constant pounding, engaging, disengaging of the cutting flutes. The bending means the tool won’t follow the toolpath that was intended, which can lead to all manner of problems. Other problems include shorter tool life, decreased accuracy and poorer surface finish.

5d7f64a4-bb6f-47f2-a62f-42b40386c9e1_zpshxofgoqz.jpg

From a purely theoretical stand point rigidity increases as the 4th power of diameter and deceases as the 3rd power of length.

A 3mm shank tool is 3X less rigid than a 4mm shank tool. As an example if you had a 3mm shank 2mm ball end mill sticking out 30mm performing a roughing operation at 18000 rpm at 13000 m/min with a depth of cut of .5 and width of cut of 1.2mm, tool deflection would on the order of .12mm. Deflection of a 4mm would be almost 10X less.

Please understand that I am not trying to disparage any machine. My intent is to merely point out the importance of particular specifications and why they are important. My thought is that this information and that from any follow up discussions would better educate those looking to implement a CNC dental mill.

I believe this can enable new adopters to make more informed decisions and pay a little less attention to the "marketing embellishments" or at least be able to identify them. Beer

How would this result on a 3mm shank that the shaft is tapered like the Sierra tools are? Would that tapered shaft reduce run out?
 
brayks

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How would this result on a 3mm shank that the shaft is tapered like the Sierra tools are? Would that tapered shaft reduce run out?

Hey Sevan,
The taper tool will not reduce run-out.

Run-out is a result of concentricity and roundness error of the rotating "assembly" which consists of the spindle, collet, holder if used and the tool shank its self. Its a condition where the tool or shaft does not rotate exactly in line with the main axis of the spindle.

Each component of the rotating assembly has a published runout spec which is as good as it gets. Over time, due to wear the run-out will change and become greater causing an uneven load and wear on the spindle bearings.

Run-out is typically measured using a dial indicator pressed against the rotating component while it is turned. Total indicated run-out (TIR) is a term we use for the measured run-out of any rotating system.



Tapered tools provide higher strength with minimal deflection. By using just a one-degree cutter, you can cut your tool deflection in half. A two-degree cutter on the shank of your tool can provide 60 percent less deflection than a straight-shank cutting tool.
 
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VHF mills are top of the line, extremely stable, I hope they improved on dust vacuum evacuation thou!.
Yes Tayeb, you should see the new set up, very slick! Literally, very slick lol.
 
Tayebdental

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Yes Tayeb, you should see the new set up, very slick! Literally, very slick lol.
Where can I see the set up Kim?.
 
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