Staub Cranial

[TomZ]

Volume of the lab has influence, but efficacy and marketability are other factors. Dont sell the small operations short, we usually end up refining what is offered out there.

 

[SSDS]

Those numbers seem rather arbitrary. There's a Dr on DT that of three dentures done with SCS had to send two of them back for reset.
I would still like to see a study with some depth to it that quantifies this one way or another. Otherwise its all sales talk and that means squat to me.

I am only conveying what a technician that uses the system said to me a few weeks ago, before that I had never heard of it. I think this is a lively debate we are having but I tend to listen to people that use a system rather than the sales people. This forum with all these opinions can only be good for anybody thinking of purchasing.

Jim

 

[kcdt]

I am only conveying what a technician that uses the system said to me a few weeks ago, before that I had never heard of it. I think this is a lively debate we are having but I tend to listen to people that use a system rather than the sales people. This forum with all these opinions can only be good for anybody thinking of purchasing.

Jim

i understand, and i hope you didn't take what I'm saying as criticism. I've put in a lot of years at removable pros and so I'm not so enthusiastic about laying down a big wad of cash to do what I already know how to do.
Many years ago the philosophy i heard that made the most sense went like this: "Don't be the first on the block to buy into something new, but don't be the last either", so I tend to wait until the hype dies down and you start to get a REAL sense of how a new technology is working. So far this one hasn't done that for me.

 

[CYNOSURER]

Hi Brian, just got back fro attending a course at LVI and sat next to a bloke from Fairmont MN and he was telling me about this system. He swears by it, he says industry average for reset and retry is about 30%, with the Staub Cranial System his lab is running at 5%. Hope this helps.
Jim

This is what is so strange about dental labs. Assuming the resets are not bite related...in which case it doesn't matter what system you use...I think 5% is high. 30% sounds like a C&B guy must be in charge of the department.
Of course, it could be my resets are so low because my guys will buy anything. I know a lot of docs and patients do.

I know one denture mill that has zero resets. There are no bad bites..."That's the bite YOU gave us!" If the patient doesn't like the arrangement they are free to buy a second set...a premium set that will address their 'special needs'.

30% RESETS?!?! How does that break down? Missed midline? Missed lip line? missed lip support? Missed plane of occlusion? Too high? Too low? Canted to the left or right? Inquiring minds want to know. The Staub Cranial system only tells you where to put them not how to 'arrange' them. It leaves this and a little thing called occlusial concept up to the artistic interpretation of the 'set up' technician.

 

[billydte]

staub cranial shows you where to place the teeth, within 95% accuracy of the patients natural teeth placement. Not only in removables, but with Diagnostic wax-ups and crown and bridge. Me being a full service lab, I'm going to get more use out of this system than just a removable lab.

I'm not trying to be critical of anyone at all, but this whole forum sounds like a lot of techs/owners that hold a mindset of "I've been doing this for X number of years and I don't need to change anything". Guys, you need to embrace technology, I'm not saying be the first to buy anything that comes down the line, but look at things in depth ( and very few on this post have put much research in this) and be open to evolving. Someone mentioned Injections systems, face it, whether you like it or not, they are better. Stop holding on to 100 year old technology and be the lab leading the way in your area. There was another debate in a post about classical vs 3d shades, good lord guys move on and evolve. Anyone can make pink smoothies with cheap teeth. Set yourselves apart.

sorry if this pisses you off, its not my intent and I know everyone is not like this and I'm not saying anyone here makes cheap pink smoothies, I'm just saying don't be scared of change.

 

[CYNOSURER]

Guys, you need to embrace technology, I'm not saying be the first to buy anything that comes down the line, but look at things in depth ( and very few on this post have put much research in this) and be open to evolving.

It's not the technology we are rejecting. I love the whole concept of the Staub Cranial system.

The selling point, especially for me as I do a lot of mail order, is that docs can skip a bite rim appointment...although they can do the same thing with a putty or (God forbid) bee's wax mush bite. Just like they can skip the preliminary model/custom tray/master model steps by taking a wash at the bite rim or the try in appointment.

That it is a $10,000 sell makes it a hard sell...unless, of course, I don't know how to set teeth and had a 30% reset factor,then it would be a necessary buy.

Still the technology is great.

Then again, the technology behind calculators is great. But, if you use it as an excuse not to learn math, geometry, algebra, or calculus then it can be a curse. And that is the concern...that a piece of technology might breed a dumber generation of pseudo-technicians' instead of enhancing a generation of super-technicians.

 

[billydte]

Then again, the technology behind calculators is great. But, if you use it as an excuse not to learn math, geometry, algebra, or calculus then it can be a curse. And that is the concern...that a piece of technology might breed a dumber generation of pseudo-technicians' instead of enhancing a generation of super-technicians.

That would be the fault of the lab owner/ manager that does not train there techs to know why they are doing what they are doing and partly, no no mostly the lab tech that does not do whatever necessary to make them the best lab tech they can possibly be. Just because technology makes things easier, don't mean its going to make you less educated.

Okay, so we all know how to do a setup and yes I doubt anyone here has a 30% reset rate, b/c the majority of our docs are general dentist that go with whatever ( AND THAT IS THE MAJORITY OF DOCS). But no one here can look a set of wax rims and replicate what God gave that patient, instead we put a mid-line where the doc marks and then set the teeth to what we think looks good and functions good on an articulator. I see the benefit in a system that replicates natural positioning. I bet no one here is replicating natural God given tooth positioning within 5% accuracy with there eyes, and bite rims made by docs that only half way know what they are doing.

 

[TomZ]

I think its great you are so excited about the system, go get em boy- LOL

 

[CYNOSURER]

). But no one here can look a set of wax rims and replicate what God gave that patient, instead we put a mid-line where the doc marks and then set the teeth to what we think looks good and functions good on an articulator. I see the benefit in a system that replicates natural positioning. I bet no one here is replicating natural God given tooth positioning within 5% accuracy with there eyes, and bite rims made by docs that only half way know what they are doing.

That's like saying no one can find pi to the six hundredth place without a calculator. It's not easy but the equation is the same whether you do it by hand or machine.

And if the above is how you are doing set ups then you are doing it wrong.

There are mechanical ways to use the given anatomical markers to set it up properly by hand.

So now we've moved from pencil to slide rulers.

The same anatomical clues are there whether you use the program or your brain. To be honest, I need both models properly articulated to do it easily. And I rarely use the rims. Why? Because I noticed a long time ago that docs rarely adjusted the rims I was sending them. A simple hot water bath and midline mark (which you rarely need) and that's about it. I have a few guys who do the classic bit rim technique. I normally don't use them as a guide when I set up. I use them after I set up to verify my set up. It keeps me on my toes. I rarely miss. Being right handed I can fall in the habit of giving a set up a slight cant to the right. Something I'm aware of and something I have to keep in check by double checking afterwards. And this is where technology is beneficial. Machines can give consistent results...either consistently wrong in the hands of a poor operator or consistently right.

Computers beat out slide rulers (as long as you have power) which beat out pencils (for speed and accuracy) but you shouldn't give up on your brain.

And I'll throw in my favorite part of my IDF signature here:

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body.
...then I realized who was telling me this.
-- Emo Phillips

 

[billydte]

I get what your saying and yeah we use rulers and all the little tools, but I am still willing to bet that this system is more accurate than what all of us are doing now. Just my opinion and we all know the saying about opinions.

 

[CYNOSURER]

I get what your saying and yeah we use rulers and all the little tools, but I am still willing to bet that this system is more accurate than what all of us are doing now. Just my opinion and we all know the saying about opinions.

Ruler? Why would you use a ruler?

 

[TomZ]

"Ive seen the pictures"

 

[CYNOSURER]

Pictures? What pictures?

Are they moving pictures? Do I have time to go to the concession stand?

popcorn

Okay, I'm ready.

popcorn

 

[JSTAUBTRAINER]

I have been watching this thread for a couple of months now. There is a good debate surrounding this technology. There are a lot of things that are well understood, but, there are some facts that are incorrect. I understand that this is not the place for the representative of a product to interject. However, I would like to invite any individuals that have questions that this environment cannot answer to contact me. My name is Jason Love. I am one of the trainers for the Staub Cranial Technology. Thank You!

Jason Love
Executive Coordinator
800-884-5047
[email protected]
Staub Cranial Home

 

[labdude]

Hi Jason,
Welcome to the site.
This is just the place for a rep, actually. You could have a forum of your own for Staub tech. in the Sponsors forum area.
If your company has a problem with you posting info here, then I guess you can't.
However, having a Staub forum here would be helpful to you and all interested parties at this site. It could be heavily moderated, or lightly moderated, your choice, to help control bashing, flaming etc.
Mike.

 

[kcdt]

I have been watching this thread for a couple of months now. There is a good debate surrounding this technology. There are a lot of things that are well understood, but, there are some facts that are incorrect. I understand that this is not the place for the representative of a product to interject. However, I would like to invite any individuals that have questions that this environment cannot answer to contact me. My name is Jason Love. I am one of the trainers for the Staub Cranial Technology. Thank You!

Jason Love
Executive Coordinator
800-884-5047
[email protected]
Staub Cranial Home

I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to answer cogent day to day questions about how this works, unless that requires a tuition payment first.
Don't take this wrong, but as a skilled and trained technician, I feel this is the flaw in your marketing- that in order to make a sound purchasing decision, I have to make the purchase first.
In my time at the bench I've already seen that fail time and time again. So if you hope to get us off the sidelines while we wait it out to see if this isn't just another primrose path of technology products that don't deliver, then provide some information that doesn't involve my wallet getting emptied out as a prerequisite.
That's what these forums are for.

 

[labdude]

The "incorrect facts" mentioned would be of interest. That shouldn't require tuition.
We can be a pain....I mean...."facts that are incorrect"...????...interesting.

 

[JSTAUBTRAINER]

I offer a free Go to Meeting to explain the entire process, benefits, and answer questions. These meetings can include up to 15 different individuals. A typical meeting takes about 25 minutes to go through all the basic information.

I don't understand what kind of investment you are referring to. We have our entire training process in videos on our website(Staub Cranial Home). We have invested a lot of energy into making our company as transparent as possible. Is there something I am missing?

 

[labdude]

Posting your go to meeting schedule would be great. People from here would attend. Probably even Ken!
The something is....some want more info before buying. I am slow and prefer pictures myself, turn pages, pictures, yeah. The somethnig more even I see. Guy seems to want more info before buying. What that"more info" is, I have no clue. As usual.

 

[kcdt]

I offer a free Go to Meeting to explain the entire process, benefits, and answer questions. These meetings can include up to 15 different individuals. A typical meeting takes about 25 minutes to go through all the basic information.

I don't understand what kind of investment you are referring to. We have our entire training process in videos on our website(Staub Cranial Home). We have invested a lot of energy into making our company as transparent as possible. Is there something I am missing?

Not at all, but admittedly your website offers much more information than when this first came up on the radar as a product, true?
My questions revolve around this whole 3 visit denture bit. If you're taking VDO at 2nd visit and delivery is at 3rd, then what happens if the clinician's VDO is off?
The other point I have is that in order for this to pay for itself, a fee needs to be attached to its use. With all due respect, most of the drs I've met that are seeking cost savings by dropping appointments aren't really the type to pay more to do it.
The one's interested in advanced procedures already have protocols that don't require a major equipment outlay, i.e., proper use of control rims or chairside arrangement of the anterior six or eight.
Your website mentions university studies, so how about some reading material posted here? What universities, what was the study investigating, what were the methods, conclusions, etc.
You guys are touting this as revolutionary, and I'm willing to be taught new tricks. So tell us.
P.S. The kind of investment I'm referring to is that when this was first proffered to the market place, all that was mentioned was the price of the equipment and the cost of training- no other information besides the Friedburg study that I had to google to read was offered. The impression left was that I could only get answers to questions by buying something. If that's not the case, then you have opportunity here to correct me