Staub Cranial

[kcdt]

I fabricate a lot of neutral zone stuff, and believe me, I've seen strong tongue thrusts that no program in the world could account for that have to be dealt with functionally.
Tim makes a very valid point- if this works for people who don't know what they're doing, what happens when they have someone who doesn't fit the formula? All need to develop critical thinking skills has been replaced by the computer.
I still think that for ten large it ought to be revolutionary- I haven't seen that yet.

 

[labdude]

Tim makes a very valid point- if this works for people who don't know what they're doing, what happens when they have someone who doesn't fit the formula? All need to develop critical thinking skills has been replaced by the computer.

While tech will slowly take over the simpler jobs, you right on Ken, critical thinking skills along with critical hands on work, will be needed for along time.
I wouldn't worry if today I were opening a new lab. Someday there may be things to replace us completely, that day is a long way off.
However, we will se some jobs replaced by tech in our time.

 

[CYNOSURER]

A Denturist who I used to work for uses this technique on all his patients.

The Staub technique? or the bite block on the lower posterior technique?

 

[D-Labtek]

Anybody who thinks this is a computer program that sets up the teeth for you is mistaken. You still need a technician to do the set up and wax up like any other denture except you have a very good starting point. The artistry is still in the technicians hands, that is something no program can replicate. The program merely draws a map on a template that the upper model is mounted to. How many of you have had to do resets because a new bite was taken, you finish the case and it comes back because the occlusion is off. Hopefully it gives us a much better starting point, this is only a tool to aide the technician and dentist to reduce lab/chair time and provide the best possible result for the patient. ABOVE ALL ELSE THE PATIENT MATTERS MOST. The Denturist uses the Staub technique for his patients and raves about the results he has had. At the seminar I attended there was a live patient that Karl Staub had never seen, the results were impressive. I am just beginning to learn about this technique but it looks very interesting. This is something different not some regurgatated technique that has been around for 50 years (epic,massad,swiss,bps,epf) and repackaged as something "NEW". I found this forum by accident trying to find a better way to finish Valplast and was immediately impressed by the knowledge of the people on the forum.
Thanks Keith

 

[CYNOSURER]

Anybody who thinks this is a computer program that sets up the teeth for you is mistaken.
No, I've seen the videos I well aware of what the program does and what the tech does.

You still need a technician to do the set up and wax up like any other denture except you have a very good starting point.
This is true. It has, basically, made a virtual contoured bite rim.

The artistry is still in the technicians hands, that is something no program can replicate.
Bold statement. I wouldn't go so far. What's really preventing the next step? Input a mould (or let the computer analyze the space and select the mould),input an arrangement preference, input shade and 3D print and light cure a final product. With a next generation (or the one after that) home scanner one might scan their own mouth and eliminate the denturist.

The program merely draws a map on a template that the upper model is mounted to.
For now. But I can see the possibilities.

How many of you have had to do resets because a new bite was taken, you finish the case and it comes back because the occlusion is off.
That the bite is off is a problem of replicating the relationship of the jaws. All this system claims is that if the bite is off you only have to fix the lower as the upper are where they need to be. That's nice but it's still a reset.

Hopefully it gives us a much better starting point,
It gives us a different starting point. Possibly an easier starting point. You could use that nice template and the vertical that the system establishes to make a killer bite rim.

this is only a tool to aide the technician and dentist to reduce lab/chair time and provide the best possible result for the patient. ABOVE ALL ELSE THE PATIENT MATTERS MOST.
Ah, the "Less filling! More taste!" concept with the argument being: Does it really have more taste or does the less filling aspect let us accept the drop in taste?

OOPS! got to get back to work. This is interesting I hope to continue the dialogue later. --Tim


The Denturist uses the Staub technique for his patients and raves about the results he has had. At the seminar I attended there was a live patient that Karl Staub had never seen, the results were impressive.


I am just beginning to learn about this technique but it looks very interesting. This is something different not some regurgatated technique that has been around for 50 years (epic,massad,swiss,bps,epf) and repackaged as something "NEW".

I found this forum by accident trying to find a better way to finish Valplast and was immediately impressed by the knowledge of the people on the forum.


Thanks Keith

 

[kcdt]

Keith, I've been at live patient hands on denture courses where , from the same starting point, but with a control rim instead of your template, a skilled tech was able to arrange the teeth there and then. As it was neutral zone, the results were also amazing.
but this was done with regurgitated 50 year old techniques that didn't require a lab to drop TEN G's.
I'm not saying it doesn't work- I'm saying I run a business and something needs to have an outcome far beyond what the tried and true(and, by the way research driven) can achieve and that includes on the bottom line.
We as an industry commit way too much of our profitability on new toys that never pan out on the P&L. So as I see it now the only P&L being improved is the guy who's selling this.

 

[kcdt]

That the bite is off is a problem of replicating the relationship of the jaws. All this system claims is that if the bite is off you only have to fix the lower as the upper are where they need to be. That's nice but it's still a reset.

Exactly! And the fact that THAT always seems to get danced around is what makes me feel someones blowing smoke you know where. I'm not seeing a reduction in appts or anything, just an expensive toy shoved in the middle. There's a hell of a lot more profitable value added techniques that actually put money in MY pocket that I'd employ before I even considered this.

 

[labdude]

Hey Ken,
Puff Puff Puff.....:bandit:
It's such a deal....:deal:
I have experienced quite a few "new" goodies over the years. Hate to beat up Keith, but, these guys ask for it sometimes.
Anybody got something positive about this goody, besides Keith??:argue:

 

[CYNOSURER]

What I said was positive.

I think the system is way cool. But it is simply a virtual bite rim maker...not that there's anything wrong with that. I can't see for the life of me why a doc or a denturist would spend time chairside conturing a bite rim if this could do it for them and with teeth instead of wax no less.

 

[D-Labtek]

but this was done with regurgitated 50 year old techniques that didn't require a lab to drop TEN G's.

Don't get me wrong the tried and true techniques work without a doubt, these are the same things I have been taught as well. I have been doing removables for 24 yrs and the one thing that keeps me going is the constant search for new knowledge. The point I was trying to make was the dental companies repackage the same techniques a piece here and a piece there only to sell it back to us. An example is the Epic certification $1900.00 canadian and then they push their products as part of the technique (like most companies). How many people own the Ivocap system or bought the Eclipse system (both very expensive systems) and use it everyday, if you can use it on a daily basis and it helps than MAYBE its worth it, if not then it has no value. I know the Eclpise system is a whole other discussion but I had to mention it because it was supposed to to be the latest greatest thing to happen to removables in decades.

 

[CYNOSURER]

The reason I don't like this system is the same reason I don't like some of those other 50 yr old tried and true methods:

The over emphasis on the upper arch.

The upper arch is crucial when it comes to the 'tics' of dentures...cosmetics, phonetics, esthetics.

But it should play a supporting role to the lower arch when it comes to the 'shuns' of dentures...occlusion, stabilization, mastication, function. There's a reason lowers are such a pain in the ass. They are one big teetertotter with a big playground bully (the tongue) pushing it around! You give that bully plenty of elbow room and you set the lower posterior teeth where they get the most support from the underlying tissue. It's a balancing act for sure but the mouth is one big ball and socket with the lower arch being the socket that you don't want getting pushed around. Upper posterior position should be dictated by the lower and not the other way around.

This over emphasis on the upper is one of the reasons I'm not a big Turbyfill fan. He locks in the upper posteriors and builds a lower acrylic bite block to work out the occlusial function and then builds his lower to the upper. This is great if the uppers are in their proper position but a waste of time if they aren't. Yeah, I know he likes to lock in the upper as that is the more stable denture to use to work out the occlusion. I don't know, in my mind that is the exact reason why you should do it just the opposite.

Well, my thoughts anyway.

 

[D-Labtek]

This is great its like shaking a wasps nest and watching the frenzy (sometimes you get stung),after all we are technicians with varying and definite opinions. Like I said in my earlier post I am just beginning to learn about this technique, but so far it looks very interesting. For the cast partial techs check this out. Videos - Sensable

 

[CYNOSURER]

CMP's Sensable...also way cool. Wish I did enoug cast frames to warrant getting one. Fun little toy though. I might have to get one just for the fun of it. I know a local lab that has the 3D printer just waiting for work to come in.

 

[sensei]

The reason I don't like this system is the same reason I don't like some of those other 50 yr old tried and true methods:

The over emphasis on the upper arch.

The upper arch is crucial when it comes to the 'tics' of dentures...cosmetics, phonetics, esthetics.

But it should play a supporting role to the lower arch when it comes to the 'shuns' of dentures...occlusion, stabilization, mastication, function. There's a reason lowers are such a pain in the ass. They are one big teetertotter with a big playground bully (the tongue) pushing it around! You give that bully plenty of elbow room and you set the lower posterior teeth where they get the most support from the underlying tissue. It's a balancing act for sure but the mouth is one big ball and socket with the lower arch being the socket that you don't want getting pushed around. Upper posterior position should be dictated by the lower and not the other way around.

This over emphasis on the upper is one of the reasons I'm not a big Turbyfill fan. He locks in the upper posteriors and builds a lower acrylic bite block to work out the occlusial function and then builds his lower to the upper. This is great if the uppers are in their proper position but a waste of time if they aren't. Yeah, I know he likes to lock in the upper as that is the more stable denture to use to work out the occlusion. I don't know, in my mind that is the exact reason why you should do it just the opposite.

Well, my thoughts anyway.

Tim, do you know of any good sources of education for setting teeth. Books, lectures, courses, anything besides the obvious working for a big removable lab?

 

[kcdt]

The reason I don't like this system is the same reason I don't like some of those other 50 yr old tried and true methods:

The over emphasis on the upper arch.

The upper arch is crucial when it comes to the 'tics' of dentures...cosmetics, phonetics, esthetics.

But it should play a supporting role to the lower arch when it comes to the 'shuns' of dentures...occlusion, stabilization, mastication, function. There's a reason lowers are such a pain in the ass. They are one big teetertotter with a big playground bully (the tongue) pushing it around! You give that bully plenty of elbow room and you set the lower posterior teeth where they get the most support from the underlying tissue. It's a balancing act for sure but the mouth is one big ball and socket with the lower arch being the socket that you don't want getting pushed around. Upper posterior position should be dictated by the lower and not the other way around.

This over emphasis on the upper is one of the reasons I'm not a big Turbyfill fan. He locks in the upper posteriors and builds a lower acrylic bite block to work out the occlusal function and then builds his lower to the upper. This is great if the uppers are in their proper position but a waste of time if they aren't. Yeah, I know he likes to lock in the upper as that is the more stable denture to use to work out the occlusion. I don't know, in my mind that is the exact reason why you should do it just the opposite.

Well, my thoughts anyway.

Tim, I really like the way you put that. Very insightful.
The other issue I have is that just because you can find the maxillary tooth position in a bony anchorage doesn't mean you'll wind up with stable function with that position MINUS the bone.
Again, its not about how new this thing is in terms of thought progression, but whether or not it means anything to your bottom line.
You can say what you want about how boring and prehistoric the old school stuff is, but it has the backing of clinical research and the test of time. This method is new to the marketplace, and as yet I've seen nothing that demonstrates clinical superiority or cost effectiveness. At least if you drop that kind of change on an Ivocap system, you can find evidence based studies that demonstrate some greater accuracy.

Those who've updated these techniques for the modern clinic have done us all a service. That a manufacturer repackages any of it for sale is capitalism.
I think we get taken for a ride far more often with the new BS than the repackaging of what works.

I also think the sensible dental is cool. it could pave the way for greater access to chrome labs. Finding good ones (or any at all) can be tough. This MIGHT level that out.

 

[CYNOSURER]

Tim, do you know of any good sources of education for setting teeth. Books, lectures, courses, anything besides the obvious working for a big removable lab?

I'm working on a sequel to my Ten Minute Denture Wax Up video...The working title is: The Ten Minute Set Up. popcorn

Until then...I got nothing. What I know comes from a lifetime of listening and watching and thinking.

I'd invest in one of the full day or two day clinics that some offer. It's hard to recommend one as I don't know what level of competency you are at. I know I went to a Dentsply full day course. I thought is was elementary and yet I heard the lab guy across town thought it was an eye opener...changed his whole concept of denture fabrication. Been trying to get to Rob Kreyer's full day gig but the first one he was going to have in Memphis got canceled and his second visit was during Final Four weekend...duh!

Remember, denture teeth are manufactured. Each manufacture has a particular concept when they design their teeth...and a particular concept for each type of tooth they offer. They are a good source of how their teeth were designed to be used.

 

[sensei]

Thanks Tim. I will look into some of the courses and see what looks like the best fit.

 

[labdude]

Hi D-lab,
Interesting videos.
As far as being a wasp nest, interesting analogy. Keith however has proven to be quite effective witha rolled up newspaper also, swatting those pesky wasps.

 

[D-Labtek]

We have seen so many technological advances in dentistry over the past few years with the integration of cad/cam programs (milled copings, substructures, crowns, digital impressions). However removables have been for the most part left alone, although we are seeing the beginning of it now. It is definitly here to stay whether we like it or not. Fewer and fewer techs are going into the removable field because C&B seems to be the popular choice for new techs. The one thing I have noticed about this forum is that there are some very passionate and knowledgeable removable techs here. I only joined a few days ago but I can see that this is a great place to share ideas and opinions.
Thanks Keith

 

[CYNOSURER]

Fewer and fewer techs are going into the removable field because C&B seems to be the popular choice for new techs.

Can you say ka-ching? :elefant:

The one thing I have noticed about this forum is that there are some very passionate and knowledgeable removable techs here.

Hey, you forgot to mention how humble we are! :humble:

Thanks Keith

We're here to help the little people.