Really? More Sironia Crap.

[ParkwayDental]

I was browsing the Sironia InLab Study Club on Facebook and I came across this. Any thoughts? Sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

 

[kimba]

Sound excellent. Heating and cooling zirconia at a rapid rate couldn't possibly cause a problem.

 

[doug]

Do you really want to fire both Cr/Co and Zirconia in the same furnace?

 

[RileyS]

Well that's lovely. Another way Sirona and Patterson are snuffing the lab. This will make chairside FCZ faster than e.max. mill, dip, sinter and polish. The inlab study group must be all giddy though. Their cerec connect cases will dwindle since docs won't need them for any posterior work now. Only hope is for graduating docs to care more about quality than technology and speed. Better make sure you can do some top quality anterior and full mouth work!!

 

[zero_zero]

"10 minute super speed sintering" ? Really ? Wonder how long those heating elements will last under such thermal stress ?

 

[ZsoltM]

Make your coffee and sinter......takes about the same time

 

[CoolHandLuke]

"10 minute super speed sintering" ? Really ? Wonder how long those heating elements will last under such thermal stress ?

willing to bet they arent thermal application. willing to wager it is induction. if so, question is raised re how they have microcontrolled the squarewaves; they must have used an "average" mass value and calculated backwards. this could lead to some real law suits if people use the superspeed setting for a rush cantilever or 3 unit bridge. induction heating works by using a DC pulse at a certain amplitude, with certain frequency, to make the material in its ring to resonate and heat itself up, much like a chicken dinner in a microwave; it needs to know what specific mass is involved in order to determine that frequency, and know what the dimensions are, because certain amplitudes and frequencies will heat up only the outer skin of the material, like lisa's burnt frozen fish finger. willing to bet they went with the traditional thimble coping calculation of 0.5mm, which right there is complete furnace failure.

also, if it is induction, that might better explain why they would allow it to sinter cocr.

but it does not explain why they would offer sintering without a slowcool function. *** has posted vigorously about how rapid cooling has destroyed any semblance of esthetic Zirconia might offer. also causes shade to behave wildly, and cause complete failure of the product.

seriously, the manufacturer specifications of sintering at specific temperatures arent just there because they were rushed to print; they mean something.

for one, relating to the Death by Zironia thread, Hydrothermal aging. several industrial tests have proven that 3YTZP the TOSOH powder formed into pressed pucks which we all use, sold under various brands, NEEDS to be sintered at a certain temperature for a certain time, else microcracks can form, allowing the bearer of that zirconia to experience complete product failure in a very short time.

this isn't a game; you can't just assume that the same results can be had by just switching out into a new furnace. there are rules.

 

[Alistar]

Funny, and pathetic. But isn't this the MO of Sirona? Sirona clearly understands something about zirconia that no one else does to be able to sinter that fast.

Was just coming on here to post a funny propaganda video, and this seems as fitting place as any.

The entire channel Youtube channel is pretty hilarious. Have a laugh.

Sorry if this derails the thread. popcorn

 

[RileyS]

I can't imagine they just decided to throw this oven together and sell it to the masses without proper R&D and field tests...then again they did make the whole cerec and inlab and sell that stuff. Tough call here.
And CoolhandLuke, should you be working for a company developing things like this? You seem to have a handle on smartsy stuff.

 

[RileyS]

Funny, and pathetic. But isn't this the MO of Sirona? Sirona clearly understands something about zirconia that no one else does to be able to sinter that fast.

Was just coming on here to post a funny propaganda video, and this seems as fitting place as any.

The entire channel Youtube channel is pretty hilarious. Have a laugh.

Sorry if this derails the thread. popcorn

Not sure how he managed to extend it past 5 minutes. Sure it isn't as fast, but what about the results of the mill?
I have been wanting see side by side comparisons of the amount of work that can be done in one day with a 3shape or exocad system and imes or roland or other mill. WOuld love to see cost of consumables, cost per unit, millig results under high magnification, and so on. Also do about ten cases, making crowns for them with both systems, sending back to doctor and having him choosing which he prefers without knowing which system they came off of. anyone capable of doing this?

 

[CoolHandLuke]

a handle, only because i do a lot of reading. when prompted of course. like the other day, i heard a science-y term i had never heard before, so a quick google for lay terms, and a few hours of scouring papers for conclusions left me with some talking points. from there its a matter of applying what you understand to what you have learned, and devise conclusions.

i would say i haven't the backing to actively concoct and R/D working tests. but i'd be glad to consult and assist.

re: how much can be done in a day - tough call. for 9 weeks i spent 6-8 hrs a day doing about 30-50 units. barring network outages which we experienced, it left the milling bodies with cases a week ahead of schedule, with always the rush 3:30 where at such a time a half a dozen units had to be done by next day and had only been received at noon.

because you know, people make promises.

i wasnt really active doing the milling, only a bit, but our communication was ever-present. if we had the smallest chip, i got to hear it. so when the machines went down, the glorious days of a week ahead of sched went poof. the shape can produce, i'm at least partial proof of that. the mill is something quite different, its a much more invested process. you sometimes have to wait a day to find out your margin has a knick in it.

 

[Marcusthegladiator CDT]

10 minutes? Pshh
Cant we sinter any faster?
Who has 10 whole minutes?

 

[k2 Ceramic Studio]

I got my hands on a paper from a US company that specialise in microwave sintering of ceramics (not just dental)and were commissioned by Ivoclar to test there Zr, think it was sintered in about 6min? This was over 3 years ago........

 

[eyeloveteeth]

actually i've come to notice that their hardware is always decent. (i mean, if you think about what the MCXL actually is - it does really good for it's category) -

I wouldn't be surprised if this is actually a good oven. Will it produce highly aesthetic results? nope - but i'm sure plenty of Dr.'s will buy this and screw more **** up.

 

[paulg100]

Most cerec users dont care about aesthetics. its about the $$$

there happy with crap looking emax vs lab made

they will be more than happy with crap (sorry.. even crappier) looking FCZ vs lab made.

They are allready milling emax cad which is weaker than pressed and sintering on a fast cycle which reduces strength further. Then probably rubber wheeling the crap out of em which reduces the strength still (maybe down to 260mpa now based on CRA study) so fast sintered reduced strength ZR wont bother em in the slightest.

so this will probably work great for em.

 

[shane williams]

Funny, and pathetic. But isn't this the MO of Sirona? Sirona clearly understands something about zirconia that no one else does to be able to sinter that fast.

Was just coming on here to post a funny propaganda video, and this seems as fitting place as any.

The entire channel Youtube channel is pretty hilarious. Have a laugh.

Sorry if this derails the thread. popcorn

WOW!! Yeah I can turn down settings, and move really freaking slow too!!! That's funny!! Why don't they show the design Sirona does, and how crappy the restoration looks. You nailed it on the head with the "propaganda" title. Sirona is a joke!!! Whoever made this video is a joke, the guy scanning is a joke! Too funny

 

[rkm rdt]

The whole premise is about time.

Nobody has time anymore and time is the great antagonist to quality.

Sirona is all about time. From the 3 Shape vs Ineos vid to the fast sinter furnace to chairside milling crowns in an hour, the focus is on how fast a restoration can be made.

There is a huge market for this and they are the leaders in this market. If your mo is time then Sirona is for you.

That's not my business model so I don't try to compete with that.

There's no need to show a dr how better your crown looks than his if he has to wait 2 weeks to compare them. That's not his value point.

Embrace the value of your work by comparing it to a fine aged scotch or wine instead of a hit off a crack pipe!

 

[eyeloveteeth]

no matter how fast they get this going. It's still money lost if a patient is sitting in the exam room chair for more than an hour waiting.

Omnicam scan - 5 minutes?

upload to inlab or inclinican 4.xx - and design and assign block - 10-15min? probably more (but we use small numbers to really make a point)

Milling on Crap-mcxl ~ single unit crown (15-22minutes) - i've seen it done on our MCXL in 15min. (e.max) -

Then has to go in oven (20 minutes)

At this point, you might as well have gotten another patient in. Once the patient gets up and leaves it makes no difference when they return.

 

[CatamountRob]

"time is the great antagonist to quality"
Did you come up with that all by yourself RKM?
That's a great quote.

 

[CatamountRob]

Whoops, it was good but didn't deserve a double post.....