Milled Titanium / NP Fits

[paulg100]

Ok this is carried over from another thread, to recap.. this is first milled titanium coping i received back:



great result huh! and i cherry picked the die to have a lovely smooth margin to make it as easy as possible for their mills.

their DMLS copings were just as bad. They are now milling NP but i really dont see the point in wasting any more time.

In answer to previous questions:

yep this was scanned and designed by me.

and yep that is the die it was scanned from. It was made with fuji rock optiscan so no powder or anything was used. The scanner was calibrated only a couple of days ago (gets done once per week now)

I have made no modification to it.

The best bit is the email i got back from their HQ after sending these photos:

"I would like to inform you, that the pictures that you sent yesterday, are enough to exclude a defect in the material.
We assume that in the edit of preparation margin it was a mistake.
Please check your restauration again!
Thank you for your understanding.
Best regards!"

Here is the margin in software from the same area shown above:



This is as clear is it gets for this scanner, You see anything wrong with that?

NOw this is the same kinda response i get from this company with every fit issue (and there are ALOT of them). Blame the user.

Now they have the same file, they can see them selves how clear the margins are, What a joke!.

Maybe someone can post some images of some unadjusted milled NP/Titanium copings they are getting from another supplier to restore my faith that all this cad/cam milling actually does work!.

Now i had exactly the same kinda of fit with a DMLS coping i tried with them, fit on die was horrid. Now the interesting thing is they made another coping for me and printed an SLA die from the same data and guess what, the coping fit the SLA die spot on.

So what does this tell us, its the junk scann data, duh!

No one there will admit that there is an issue with the scanner.

EDIT1: Just checked the technical manuals for this companies scanners. There is NO published data for accuracy and when i asked via email, the rep did not have that information.

EVERY other major scanner manufacturer appears to publish accuracy data. What is this company trying to hide??

 

[DMC]

Poor scan data.

 

[harry1]

Slightly confused?
1st image shows trimmed die, scan data image shows untrimmed with tiisue intact?
Have I missd something?

 

[DMC]

SLA, SLS, and printing copings in plastic is kinda different.
Just convet to water-tight stl file and send into the software to get "sliced".

CNC CAM need to have the margin identified by RAW CURVE. This defines the area where the mill wil go to superfinishing mode (hopefuly if possible) with smallest bur to make margin and interior of crown. If CAM operator makes mistake, the RAW curve could be off and portions of the margin are not as accurate as they should be. This is extra step in which human error can happen.

 

[paulg100]

"Poor scan data."

yep thats what i reckon but its the best you can get with the scanner.

Maybe if i do it 10 times one coping might come back right. real useful.

Its the same die. When i scanned it i hadnt sectioned the model as i didnt want the saw cuts throwing data spikes into the image.

Theres a space as big as you like under the margin (its an ivoclar study model) and the tissue was trimmed away under x6 mag. Didnt even need to go any where near the margin when trimming.

You dont scan the model then individually scan each die with the inlab system like you do on other systems.

Just scan from top down, then i shot from each side to capture anu missing data.

 

[RileyS]

The "red cam" was the best thing since sliced bread according to inlab reps. Then when they came out with the blue light scanner they admitted the original wasn't that great. The company is a joke. I can show you some pics of how our inlab system mills e.max, even from a doctors chairside scan. If I get a second to breath on Monday I'll post them. I'm surprised you're still using that thing.

 

[pingvin]

I am a bit slow, can you post the name of the scanner? What is DMLS copings?

 

[paulg100]

"I'm surprised you're still using that thing."

dont have any choice, cant afford anything else as we are still paying the lease for this (yes it is probably causing damage to our business!)

"I am a bit slow, can you post the name of the scanner? What is DMLS copings?"

Sirona Inlab Ineos RED.

DMLS: Direct Metal Laser Sintering.


Just checked sironas tech sheet.

Sirona - The Dental Company - Products - Digital Dentistry - Labside Solutions - Service - Technical specifications

Accuracy of its scanner is N/A

HOW THE HELL can a company not know the accuracy of its own freakin scanner

 

[CatamountRob]

Just checked sironas tech sheet.

Sirona - The Dental Company - Products - Digital Dentistry - Labside Solutions - Service - Technical specifications

Accuracy of its scanner is N/A

HOW THE HELL can a company not know the accuracy of its own freakin scanner

............I think it's probably safe to say that they know it.......just don't want others to!

 

[pingvin]

Lol, thanks, is the new one - Blue - any better?

 

[paulg100]

Who knows, they don't publish the accuracy of that either so I wouldn't go anywhere near it.

 

[pingvin]

Who on earth would buy this kind of machine without specifications?!?

I saw that Sirona claim precision 50 microns for inLab and 25 microns for MCXL, but I guess this is not the final maximum gap, this is probably the precision of the 'handpiece'? Usually end precision is less and greatly depends on the scanner I guess. Girrbach scanner precision is 20 micron, milling machine 10 micron, end result maximum gap about 25 microns, while Zirkonzahn scanner precision about 9 microns and milling unit 1 micron, final gap around 10 microns, if I understand this correctly.

 

[BobCDT]

Looks like you gor some one else's coping

 

[paulg100]

"Who on earth would buy this kind of machine without specifications?!?"

er well we did

wish i knew then what i know now.

And theres still labs buying....

 

[paulg100]

"Who on earth would buy this kind of machine without specifications?!?"

er well we did

wish i knew then what i know now.


And theres still labs buying....

"25 microns for MCXL"

yeah not alot of use if the scanner turns out to be a 100um or somthing though!

 

[pingvin]

"25 microns for MCXL"

yeah not alot of use if the scanner turns out to be a 100um or somthing though!

Exactly my thought! If I see correctly, the maximum space between the crown and plaster is about 0,28 mm (You can measure it more correctly by magnifying on screen and calculate width of the crown and width on the screen and from there measure the gap on the screen and calculate the real dimension). So if the 25 micron milling made maximum mistake, then scanner's maximum mistake/accuracy is about 250 microns (if my calculations and observations are correct). Approximately.

 

[paulg100]

"Zirkonzahn scanner precision about 9 microns and milling unit 1 micron"

ill eat my shorts if that mill has an accuracy of 1um.

Even the xx ton industrial units would have a hard time hitting that, if at all.

"then scanner's maximum mistake/accuracy is about 250 microns "

That sounds reasonable to me from the silly results im getting. But the easiest test i find, is that if you can see the gap with the unaided eye then its 100um + and that aint any use for dentistry.

If anyone ever questions that then a quick google search should find the published data.

eye no see < 100um.

Its getting quite laughable, i just called the Sirona tech helpline again today, and the guy i spoke to didnt knowANYONE at Sirona who would know how acurate there scanners are, ive never heard a german guy squirm on the phone before.

Man im like a pitbull now, not letting go of this if it takes a thousand calls and letters and more.....

 

[pingvin]

Oups, I went to recheck:
"Controlled axes with 5 micron resolution" so not 1 micron, I apologize, but I found out where I saw the number, for M3 they wrote "Milling bur calibration with a precision up to 0,001 mm". But this is not the same as milling accuracy. My bad.

 

[harmonylab]

"I'm surprised you're still using that thing."

dont have any choice, cant afford anything else as we are still paying the lease for this (yes it is probably causing damage to our business!)

"I am a bit slow, can you post the name of the scanner? What is DMLS copings?"

Sirona Inlab Ineos RED.

DMLS: Direct Metal Laser Sintering.


Just checked sironas tech sheet.

Sirona - The Dental Company - Products - Digital Dentistry - Labside Solutions - Service - Technical specifications

Accuracy of its scanner is N/A

HOW THE HELL can a company not know the accuracy of its own freakin scanner

I do recall seeing somewhere that the red cam's accuracy was 25 microns... not sure if it's even that accurate. but an even bigger problem is the software's ineptitude at stitching images together... stitch a few images at different angles, and the whole thing gets warped.

 

[harmonylab]

Lol, thanks, is the new one - Blue - any better?

yeah... the blue one is a lot better than the red. the scanned images are a lot more detailed and sharper than the red. the red cam was a total joke when it came to margins. the bluecam still isn't great, but a huge improvement over the red.