Itero-Trios-Omnicam-Tru def- Carestream

[dcriger]

I am a dental supply sales rep. I had a customer tell me he went with itero because his lab guy instructed him to purchase it because he doesn't work as well with 3Shape. I interpret that he doesn't have 3 shape scanner correct?
If you don't have the brand scanner of the DI does the image degrade importing into his brand of software?
I thought itero was expensive for labs because import fees?
From the dental labs end I've seen a comparison From Trios scans into a 900 scanner and an omnicam into the 4.0 something before 15 came out software and the 3Shape images/clarity were way better. I don't know why the manufactures don't market that since there's a potential big difference.
Any info/opinion you have please reply.



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[CoolHandLuke]

the only company i know to have empirically bad data is 3m tru def. it is complete crap.

everything else as long as the scan is properly taken, will sing like a songbird no matter who works on it with what software.

 

[dcriger]

Thank you! I was hoping you'd see this and post.


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[CoolHandLuke]

welcome anytime.

let me answer your questions directly:

If you don't have the brand scanner of the DI does the image degrade importing into his brand of software?

no, not exactly.

3 shape has its own method of 'rendering' any scan brought into the designer tools; instead of representing it completely as-is, it automatically attempts to fill certain holes, and in doing so creates its own kind of distortions.

like this:

these surfboard shaped distortions are 3shape trying to close a hole it found, successfully, but poorly.

so while it is true that 3shape does also distort data, it does quite depend on the practices used during scanning in the first place.

the above photo is taken from Trios case, iTero scans don't come out like this ever - because the data and holes are all processed by Align before any lab gets their hands on it. they do a similar thing closing holes and bridging gaps in lacking scan data. but no lab will ever see their back end.

let me show you some 3m data



those tiny pinholes 3shape didnt recognize as holes, so didnt try to close them. this means i will have to manually use the remove artefact sculpting kit to sweep the whole model before i can even think about using these scans to make models.

because otherwise model builder will wig out and crash so hard i may need a new computer just to continue working.

i exaggerate of course, and the above are hyperbole of real life situations. but i hope you get what i am saying.

its not a centralized blame to lay. some errors only present themselves when attempting to design, others are the problem of the actual method used to scan the patient. its not always the labs fault, and not always the doctors fault. no different than the analog method of yesteryear.

 

[rkm rdt]

The 3m data looks terrible.Is that the powder?

 

[CoolHandLuke]

didnt ask. dont care.

 

[Adigitalsmile]

I have been against 3M IOS for a long time however within the last few months and receiving scans from a clinician that knows how to properly use powder and isolate the margin. Scan data has greatly improved the quality. Patients are not a fan of powder however the patient also dries the surfaces for good scan data. Now if they clinicians would just scan more teeth on all scanner i can properly make models for it.

 

[2thm8kr]

I have been against 3M IOS for a long time however within the last few months and receiving scans from a clinician that knows how to properly use powder and isolate the margin. Scan data has greatly improved the quality. Patients are not a fan of powder however the patient also dries the surfaces for good scan data. Now if they clinicians would just scan more teeth on all scanner i can properly make models for it.

Yes, novice IO scanner operators suck, but with some coaching they can shine. Just pretend you are the short bus driver and take charge.

 

[Adigitalsmile]

Carestream is the hardest scans to read as we only see monotone in the stl data.

 

[rkm rdt]

Carestream is the hardest scans to read as we only see monotone in the stl data.

I thought it created a colour stl?

 

[Adigitalsmile]

It does on the clinical side but once it goes to the lab we only see monotone unless the clinician scans hd photos of prep that we can use as reference.

 

[rkm rdt]

I didn't know that. What's the point of colour scanning if the tech sees mono?

That's something they fail to mention at the time of sale.

 

[2thm8kr]

Do you really need to see color? Monochrome shows contours better. Color uses computer computational capacity. Even if it gives shade info, it is only measuring value not giving a genuine color map.
Maybe it's just me.??

 

[Toothman19]

welcome anytime.

let me answer your questions directly:



no, not exactly.

3 shape has its own method of 'rendering' any scan brought into the designer tools; instead of representing it completely as-is, it automatically attempts to fill certain holes, and in doing so creates its own kind of distortions.

like this: View attachment 24201

these surfboard shaped distortions are 3shape trying to close a hole it found, successfully, but poorly.

so while it is true that 3shape does also distort data, it does quite depend on the practices used during scanning in the first place.

the above photo is taken from Trios case, iTero scans don't come out like this ever - because the data and holes are all processed by Align before any lab gets their hands on it. they do a similar thing closing holes and bridging gaps in lacking scan data. but no lab will ever see their back end.

let me show you some 3m data

View attachment 24202

those tiny pinholes 3shape didnt recognize as holes, so didnt try to close them. this means i will have to manually use the remove artefact sculpting kit to sweep the whole model before i can even think about using these scans to make models.

because otherwise model builder will wig out and crash so hard i may need a new computer just to continue working.

i exaggerate of course, and the above are hyperbole of real life situations. but i hope you get what i am saying.

its not a centralized blame to lay. some errors only present themselves when attempting to design, others are the problem of the actual method used to scan the patient. its not always the labs fault, and not always the doctors fault. no different than the analog method of yesteryear.

Must be a 3shape thing Ive honestly never had any issues with 3M scans, but Im probably just lucky though cause the doc that sends them actually knows what hes doing

 

[CoolHandLuke]

even the trios colour map is not great. especially when there are smears in the data post processing.

good for shade, not of special help identifying margins or gingival contours that could lead to fnding a margin.

 

[rkm rdt]

The colour is very helpful when shading a crown,adjacent teeth and staining etc.
Dark re cord contrasts and yes I ask them to leave it in.

I like to toggle

 

[Adigitalsmile]

The color is important to see when clinician preps tooth at tissue level and does no isolation. Allows you to have a better calculated guess where the margin is.

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[2thm8kr]

The color is important to see when clinician preps tooth at tissue level and does no isolation. Allows you to have a better calculated guess where the margin is.

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Yes, but if they don't use some form of tissue retraction it is still just a guess color or not.

 

[Adigitalsmile]

Yes, but if they don't use some form of tissue retraction it is still just a guess color or not.

Correct agree with you 100%

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[TheLabGuy]

We use exocad exclusively, and found carestream to be the easiest to work with, no extra fees on Doctors end, very reasonably priced, completely open architecture. However, the trios scans were very nice as well...but you pay for that sht. 3m always have had issues, made some nice stuff, seemed to be a struggle to get to that point though and I've had other labs do the case with same result. Trios is okay, but I fkn hate milled models and they are stupidly priced...that's where we are currently on opinions of iOS scans, probably will change tomorrow.