For all the mill owners - Was it worth it ?

[rkm rdt]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Two more questions
How much time is spent nesting and changing pucks etc as opposed to just outsourcing the design's
Any mills to recommend? Or stay away from?

 

[Car 54]

You aren’t wrong! for me it was always “I’d rather have the time than the money” kind of situation - I have to admit it’s nice to upload to Argen and forget about it. The lab has always made a very good living for me and I try not to get too stuck on profits.
I’m going to mull it over awhile longer, and in the meantime I can try and figure out how to rearrange the lab to fit all the new equipment ! I’m already cramped

And remember, if you're already cramped for space some of these mills take a "beast" of a compressor. That's one of the reasons I went with a Dry mill, as it didn't need the amount of cfm as a bigger mill needed, and a bigger compressor.

PrograMill PM3 - PM5 users here?

I am due for an upgrade from my Wieland Mini. Nothing wrong with it, but the 4 axis limit the use in implant cases. So, the most 'logic' upgrade would be a PM3. I have seen reports on the PM7 here, but as far as I am aware, nothing on the PM3 or PM5, which are different from the PM7. So, if...

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[JKraver]

A mill would totally be worth it. A 100+K mill may not be worth it. If it is just for zirconia then you don't need the monster, but if you are cutting bars and abutments.

 

[desertfox384]

Yeah Car54 thats something im paying attention to .... Good thing is that i can get as big a compressor as needed as I keep it outside the lab work area, however I also like to keep things as simple as possible so it would be nice to have one that doesn't need air. Too bad vhf doesn't offer a disc changer on the k5 otherwise I would look hard at that one.

 

[ztech]

I bought my mill with zero zirconia capability or experience. I didn't offer it as a product in my lab, I was strictly wax/cast/ stack crown and bridge. My ROI was less than 3 yrs. Only regrets is that I didn't do it earlier.

 

[Car 54]

@desertfox384 Also to consider are the yearly extortion (lol) fees that some of the vendors charge for their software or mill "maintenance" fees.
And as @TheLabGuy mentioned the level of support, and then is the ease of use (less learning curve) for some of the CAM software.

The Rolands (DG Shape) require very little air (electric spindle),just enough for the tool change (not sure)? and to blow the work off. Millbox (their default CAM) does have a lot of YouTube videos, which can be helpful.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

https://dentallabnetwork.com/forums/threads/lukes-guide-to-digitizing-your-lab.16802/

 

[Affinity]

You aren’t wrong! for me it was always “I’d rather have the time than the money” kind of situation - I have to admit it’s nice to upload to Argen and forget about it. The lab has always made a very good living for me and I try not to get too stuck on profits.
I’m going to mull it over awhile longer, and in the meantime I can try and figure out how to rearrange the lab to fit all the new equipment ! I’m already cramped

I totally get where youre coming from, I outsourced before I got my mill, and youre right that time is money.. Im a one man lab, and a busy month for me is around 100+ units.. I could take on more work if I didnt mill and sinter them, but it would almost be a wash. This is more math than I care to do this early, but whether you outsource 120 units, or I mill 100 units, the profit could be the same depending on what youre charging. I wasnt trying to convince you either way, especially if you dont have the room, becuase it does take a lot of space and power to mill and sinter in a small lab.
For me, Im a control freak, I dont want someone else coloring my zirconia, I would say that is the hardest part of the process to get perfect, but if what argen sends works for you, then dont mess with success. For reference, the total time it takes for me to take a designed crown, nest, mill, desprue, color, is less than 3 minutes per crown.. however if you do that 120x, thats 6 hours/month. Ive always found it takes longer to fill out a rx form again for every case and upload. When you add in the shipping cost, to me, it just doesnt make sense. I paid my first mill off in a year, used it for several years, then sold an asset to purchase another. Ive since purchased 4 other used mills that work better than the fancy new one I bought..

 

[desertfox384]

I totally get where youre coming from, I outsourced before I got my mill, and youre right that time is money.. Im a one man lab, and a busy month for me is around 100+ units.. I could take on more work if I didnt mill and sinter them, but it would almost be a wash. This is more math than I care to do this early, but whether you outsource 120 units, or I mill 100 units, the profit could be the same depending on what youre charging. I wasnt trying to convince you either way, especially if you dont have the room, becuase it does take a lot of space and power to mill and sinter in a small lab.
For me, Im a control freak, I dont want someone else coloring my zirconia, I would say that is the hardest part of the process to get perfect, but if what argen sends works for you, then dont mess with success. For reference, the total time it takes for me to take a designed crown, nest, mill, desprue, color, is less than 3 minutes per crown.. however if you do that 120x, thats 6 hours/month. Ive always found it takes longer to fill out a rx form again for every case and upload. When you add in the shipping cost, to me, it just doesnt make sense. I paid my first mill off in a year, used it for several years, then sold an asset to purchase another. Ive since purchased 4 other used mills that work better than the fancy new one I bought..

Regarding coloring, im assuming you mean pre sintering .... this is an aspect I know little to nothing about. I use argens ht multilayer for all of my posteriors, and zir copings that i core stain and layer for all of the anteriors (and sometimes emax). To my knowledge the multilayer zirs dont need any coloring, but correct me if Im wrong so I know what im getting into lol. You're right, it may come out in the wash..
I never spent much on shipping as argen is $15 flat price for each batch, and i only do one or two batches a week, and i don't have to write up a second script with them either as it imports right from my 3shape. I will certainly save a few thousand each month, but gain control and lose a little time. Worst case if I'm really busy i can always outsource designs i guess - I usually go with more options not less.

 

[Affinity]

Yeah if you use a precolored zirconia you dont need to color it, much. I remember that argen has the direct connection with 3shape, like I said I havent outsourced in years other than abutments to alien. If you want to stay a one man lab, with a small footprint, and not take on any employees, then outsourcing is probably the right choice.
I never really liked playing the volume game to try and make more money, which is one reason why I dont have employees. Theres a peak you can get to by yourself in a 40-60 hr week, and it sounds like if I outsourced I might be able to do another couple dozen units , but make the same amount of money. It all comes down to what you charge the Dr.. If I raise my prices to pay argen and say, 'I will be sending everything out to save me time so I can take on more work' , that doesnt really convey value to the Drs.

 

[Denture Dude]

What does your business plan dictate?

 

[LarryRDC]

You should ask yourself, do I need a mill or, do I want a mill…..I’ve been a one man lab for 43 years. At this point I’m full digital . I do have a printer, but outsource my milling to a small lab in the US. I know what my profits are and the rest is simple. Profit + time, materials, and outsourcing costs. I have no time do deal with milling.

 

[JKraver]

Life was a bit easier when I wasn't running the mill. Just click what you want and get back a unit in a few days.

 

[Car 54]

For Sale - Roland DWX-52DCi

Lab closed down. Selling my Roland DWX-52DCi. Great mill works as it should. I was a small lab so it hasn’t seen too much use (Milled about 15-20 crowns a week, sometimes less). Asking $20k Located in Parma, ID. Willing to deliver for an additional fee. Also can build shipping crate if shipping...

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[Andrew Priddy]

I’m 57, I want less to do not more, if I was 27 I’d be thinking about a mill.
Maybe I’m 58, I can never remember.

maybe you have a mill and just forgot

 

[Affinity]

Different strokes, some people go out and are satisfied paying $20 for someone else to cook a 1/4 lb burger. Id rather buy 4 lbs of beef and make burgers all week.

The biggest labs in the country dont outsource, so there is something to be said about a path to growth as a lab and as a tech. This is the way I think.. Take the material cost of the zirconia, for argen volume, they probably pay $50/puck or so, so the zr they are selling you costs them maybe $2-3 unit, + the 2-3 minutes to nest/desprue/sinter, and you pay $25-40 for that crown, youre essentially paying for labor that costs $400/hr. (If you take out the costs of the mill, which certainly arent $400 an hour) If Im wrong, please explain.

 

[JKraver]

Different strokes, some people go out and are satisfied paying $20 for someone else to cook a 1/4 lb burger. Id rather buy 4 lbs of beef and make burgers all week.

The biggest labs in the country dont outsource, so there is something to be said about a path to growth as a lab and as a tech. This is the way I think.. Take the material cost of the zirconia, for argen volume, they probably pay $50/puck or so, so the zr they are selling you costs them maybe $2-3 unit, + the 2-3 minutes to nest/desprue/sinter, and you pay $25-40 for that crown, youre essentially paying for labor that costs $400/hr. (If you take out the costs of the mill, which certainly arent $400 an hour) If Im wrong, please explain.

Argen does entire pucks around the clock 24/7 They have a crazy amount of volume.

Realistically, I can nest 2-5min, mill 20min, desprue/contour 2 min, dry 30 min and sinter 9hrs. Any of those steps could stall my next step. If I am busy doing other work I may forget about a puck that was milled or nested but not milled yet.

 

[doug]

That's what the timer on your iphone is for.
it's a real task-master

 

[Car 54]

That's what the timer on your iphone is for.
it's a real task-master

Or in my case, Alexa.

 

[Affinity]

Why do you dry your crowns for 30 mins? I thought the oven did that.. Im only asking because Ive never done that, even when I dipped, unless its a thick bridge.