Decementation of Ti Inserts

dmonwaxa

dmonwaxa

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I had an experience where Ti inserts became separated both from Zr and PMMA. I used Multilink Implant on sandblasted and primed Ti inserts. I have my own perspective as to what may be causing this, but curious to know if anyone has had this issue, is it an ongoing thing or did you solve it and how? What is your protocol for cementing?
 
CreDes

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I have not had his issue, but I use Panavia 2.0. One exception was with an outsource lab that already had them cemented for me.
I sandblast both surfaces, use the primer on the titanium only, and light cure.
 
dmonwaxa

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Thanks CreDes,,,,, A bit more info,,, these are on multi abutment cases.
 
ParkwayDental

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Thanks CreDes,,,,, A bit more info,,, these are on multi abutment cases.

There is no mechanical retention what so ever on the Multi unit abutments.
 
CreDes

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Yeah, that is a little different. I have wandered if this could happen over time with the whole arch on a few small abutments. There is just less surface area for the cement to bond to.
 
zero_zero

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We cut retention grooves into the Ti inserts, sandblast, steam. ..cement with Bredent DTK-Kleber...never had any separation...
The Zr or PMMA has grooves cut as well....;)
That's way it relies on mechanical keying not just adhesion. ..
 
dmonwaxa

dmonwaxa

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Yeah, that is a little different. I have wandered if this could happen over time with the whole arch on a few small abutments. There is just less surface area for the cement to bond to.

Yes, the geometry of the Ti inserts is what concerns me.

There is no mechanical retention what so ever on the Multi unit abutments.
Tyler the Ti inserts are designed for mechanical retention its the Zr and PMMA when milled that has no retention.
 
dmonwaxa

dmonwaxa

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We cut retention grooves into the Ti inserts, sandblast, steam. ..cement with Bredent DTK-Kleber...never had any separation...
The Zr or PMMA has grooves cut as well....;)
That's way it relies on mechanical keying not just adhesion. ..

Are the grooves in the PMMA and Zr cut during the milling process? I realize this will increase the time and changes the strategy in the milling process, but will go a long way to prevent this occurrence.
 
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rkm rdt

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I had that problem with Lava Ultimate on a ti base.

No issues with zir though. I use Multilink ho
 
zero_zero

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Are the grooves in the PMMA and Zr cut during the milling process? I realize this will increase the time and changes the strategy in the milling process, but will go a long way to prevent this occurrence.
For the Zr is being milled with a 1mm flat end tool...continuous 5axis mode...
Got a few grooved STL models made with Rhino, basically the NT base model modified with positive grooves on it...
After the modelling is finished...the screw retained restoration is imported into Rhino, is lined up with the grooved model...then the grooved model gets subtracted leaving the negative grooves inside...bit of a hassle I know...got no time to write a script which would automate the process...

For PMMA is done manually with an inverted cone carbide...could be done on a green state Zr as well...I guess. ..:)
 
LA Ceramics

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We have also had this problem with multi-link. Very troubling as we have a lot of them out there. Oi weh Bawling
 
JohnWilson

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Troy you and I talked on the phone on this so you know my thoughts but I will share with the group.

I have never had a ti base come loose on a single unit implant case, hell on some occasions when we needed to add a contact after it was cemented it was damn near impossible to separate the base.

Now for bridges I admit there has ben some issues, I have been forced to change my protocols to make sure my clients are doing their jobs so no finger pointing happens. Like our clients I feel "married" to these large cases. I saw the writing on the wall early and realized I needed to be able to manage my risk on them.

We all know on any bridge its the accuracy of our master model that affects the success or failure of a case. Now there are levels of failure and some propagate immediately, some take time. On Metal ceramic cases the fudge factor of clinical competency can be off to allow for bridges that are slightly not passive. Over time the screw will be the weak link and screw loosening happens. On screw retained cases the doc would often times just tighten the screw dismiss the patient until the next time. On any other material that is utilizing a cemented base we do not have this luxury.

What I have found is that even though we go through the steps to verify the master model it makes sense that mistakes can happen. Jigs can appear seated in radiographs if x-rays are taken at the wrong angle, Also the new bone level fixtures with offsets in the base can be a bit of a challenge to know if they are all the way down. After some issues with bases I started requesting copy's of the radiographs to verify and add to my file. This allows me a better way to track our failures.

As I see it the issues is not with the cement, hell we need a bit of a week link some where right? Since the caps are the screw seat if the fixture is slightly off high or low then the cap will always be under tension once the screws are tightened on the appliance, of course eventually it fails. Creating mechanical retention to try and lock things in will lead to more frames being under tension and thats not a good thing for ceramics. While I know the manufactures of these parts realized this they still offer solutions to make us feel better. (Why do you think NT trading added ribs to their NEW caps?)

A bit of a tip for guys doing these large cases:

Often times we come down to the wire and cement these large cases on the day they need to ship. Many of us choose to ship these cases assembled on the master soft tissue model. On maxillary cases often times the soft tissue will be under a bit of tension as we screw the appliance down. Since all of these cements were designed to be cured in the mouth when your working in a 75* lab it will take MUCH longer to fully set. Your light source will not fully penetrate to get a full cure so we are forced to wait for the self cure properties to fully harden. I have found that even the slight pressure of the soft tissue on the bases prior to full set of the cement can make you look foolish when the case arrives with a base or two loose. Now we cement one day prior to the ship date, on a model with no tissue in place. We let the case fully set overnight before we remove it from the model. Then and only then will we separate it and clean up all the cement and try the case with the soft tissue back in place. Does this protocol make a big difference? Big is a relative word but it allows me to sleep a bit better knowing I am thinking past just slapping some cement in and throwing it in a box. It also takes one more variable out of the equation for me as well.

The new materials are awesome, they can offer our clients really amazing results when used correctly but we have to be able to track out failures better and to understand WHY things fail. Its rarely the material that causes our issue but the way its being used that is the problem.
 
zero_zero

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Is there anybody out there who cements these restorations with the soft tissue on ? There's no way of knowing if is seated right...unless you got an x-ray vision...:D
 
JohnWilson

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If I gave you the illusion that was what I was saying then I am either a bad writer or your reading comprehension sucks. :)

Either way I was trying to convey this idea....

That you could have some movement to the caps if you take the prosthetic off the model after cementing to replace the soft tissue and screw it down for shipping before it has fully cured.

Make sense?
 
zero_zero

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Uhh...guess it makes sense...:confused:...we ship'em out nicely packed in membrane boxes...screws separate...labeled with tooth no. and recommended torque...hence my comprehending issues...;)
 
JohnWilson

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I just find having a bunch of separate two connect abutment in a case box super easy for them to screw things up. When they have to take one by one off the model less of a chance to screw the pooch.

We used to do exactly what you described with the big clear membrane boxes some times the membrane would tear as the units were too big. We also used to buy gelatin casing for each screw/abutment then label them with a sharpie and include them separately. It was just a royal pain in the ass.

Now we del in a clear/foam model box with the prosthetic seated on the model, this has been the most efficient way for us. We also include a sticker on the top of the box that indicates torque value for each site.
 
dmonwaxa

dmonwaxa

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John, I appreciate the conversation we had and youur input is valuable. You know my protocol cause we discussed it at length. However, think I'll start requesting panos of the seated jig, I always cement with the soft tissue removed. And was witness to one popping out when being torqued in place intraorally, heard the loud " thick" sound. These inserts are cemented at least 24 hours prior to being delivered. Usually over the weekend. We can only guarantee the fit on the model, so that needs to be verified for accuracy.
 
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dmonwaxa

dmonwaxa

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So far we have Multilink implant, Panavia 2, Bredent DTK Kleber cements being used. What other brands are you guys using? It would seem that the cement is not the issue, unless we see failures with a particular brand. Don't be shy, post up your material used and your results, fail or success.
 
hammerhead

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*** Scott called it( SECRET SAND)didn't understand the effect the material has on metals and zirc.Rocatec is a 3m blast material ,also known as cojet.We have used this on all pfms , ti bases and gold crowns for 10 years.

Easy to sell drs at 13.00 per crown,when u tell them that short no.2 gold crown is going to be a problem typically on Saturday mornings.ha

90 bucks worth of cojet will net u 500

just don't blast over 3 bar,holding in one place over 3 bar u can make a sweet post

Never had anything come apart with unicem.We also spray around margins on zirc before wash firing
 
eyeloveteeth

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i have seen quite a few with multi cement fail. I still love Panavia...and never experienced failure
 
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