Anyone using Wironium?

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Clear Precision Dental

Clear Precision Dental

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I had a nice conversation with a Bego rep in October. He sent me some samples of Wirovest/Begosol and Wironit (regular and hard). These made some nice frames. I am strongly contemplating taking their course so that I can be licensed to purchase Wironium (which I am hoping is even easier to work with). I'd be most interested hearing from anyone using Wironium.

If not Wironium, what are you using? Are you using alloys that are restricted? I appreciate any input. Thanks!
 
Clear Precision Dental

Clear Precision Dental

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417 people registered on this site... and not a single response. Can anyone tell me their preferences for partial denture framework alloys? Did I hit a sore spot that I do not know about?
 
CloudPeakDL

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I don't think you hit a sore spot, just something most people don't make. Most of us who do dentures and frameworks sub out the framework. I made frameworks for a year and swore I would do anything but that again.
 
yooper886

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CPD,

I use to use a lab that made the RPD frames using the wironium. They make great frames and Bego seems to have a nice system to produce frames. Unfortunatly I was forced to stop using this lab since he really seemed to not want my business by constantly raising fees and I always got the impression that I was a bother when I called to talk to him about cases. A real shame because this was the second best frame tech I have found, the best was costing me over $300 a frame.

Back to the metal. What I liked about the frames is you could bend the clasps easier with less risk of them breaking then other metals.

Contact me privatly if you start using the Bego system.
 
Clear Precision Dental

Clear Precision Dental

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Thanks for some input. I've been subbing out my frames for RPDs and any full porcelain (ie. veneers, onlays, zirc crowns). Once in a while, I'll drop the ball on getting the odd frame or veneer sent out and I have to crank it out myself to meet a deadline. Burning the candle on both ends, and then needing to light it in the middle SUCKS.

For my acrylic based partials, I started blocking out undercuts and processing on the dupe. Got some great fits & I could present it on a master cast. Then I started casting some clasp assemblies to solder onto broken frames. I was using crown and bridge investment to cast pattern that I made from GC. Pattern resin. So I was already close to doing most of the steps anyway.

The lab that has been doing my frames has always done a nice job. I was their first client (account # 0001) and they gave me some amazing pricing. The price has now quadrupled. My last frame came with an upcharge of $20.00 and a note saying they had to add the increase because of the increased cost of "gold." I ran into a Bego rep the next weekend. I've always known that Bego alloys were on the pricey side, so I asked him about the lastest increase in partial denture frame alloys (my sub lab is not using Bego). He told me they did have a price increase of $15.00 per box. I asked how many frames does a box make. He said on average, they made about 60 frames!

If you ever need to raise a fee do it, but don't lie about the reason why! The lie hurts more than the 20 bucks, 'cause now I am going to question (in my own mind) everything they tell me from now on!

One of the labs ex-employees stopped by to chat while he was on his rounds. He now sells dental burs. He told me the lab I was subbing my frames to was subbing the frames to a lab in Taiwan!

I figured I could do my own frames since I already own an induction casting machine. The only equipment I am missing is an electro-polishing machine. I subbed two frames to a lab in Stillwater, MN that used Wironium. They were bulkier and more expensive than I thought represented value, but the clasps were easier to adjust and the alloy carries a good reputation. I'd need to take a course to use Wironium, and if I did that, I would HAVE to make my own frames in order to justify the time out of the lab, and the fee, stay in Conneticut, etc... Decisions, decisions.......
 
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I use Bego investment system for 5 years now. I am also certified Bego wironium tech.Went to RI and met the best frame tech there is Martin Schmidt.
I bet this is the guy you were paying 300 bucks for a frame. Anyway system is probably the best on the market but until you learn all the tricks with it, it could be very frustrating. The reason the Wironium frame is the most expensive is because the system itself is not meant for high volume frame labs. There is simply no way you can make money using the system in high volume lab. Therefore, we have to charge much more. The reason your frame guy wanted to get reed of you is because he did not want to do Bego any more. I sometimes want to quit when I have to disinvest or sandblast one frame and it takes me 5 times more than with Vitallium but when I seat that frame on a model and it fits like a glow, I smile and forgive Bego for all the bitching.
 
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Clear Precision Dental

Clear Precision Dental

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I'm biting the bullet (not literally...we build teeth not ruin them...) and am going to sign up for the "Precision Removable Appliance Course" at Bego the first week of May (4-6, three day course),so I will be able to start making Wironium frames after that (and some learning curve, of couse!)

I have been using their investment, wax patterns and forms, and Wironit alloy. These have worked well, so I hope being able to use Wironium is an even noticeable improvement.

Next is figuring plane fare, hotel etc. Been a little slow lately, so this is a good time to regroup and try to take the quality up another notch or two. By the time May hits, however, I may be burning the candle in the middle again.... who knows?
 
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DDDental

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Call Bill or my sales rep. Jessica 800 342-2346 and they will arrange your hotel stay, close to their facility, you even have a special pricing for the hotel, Ramada inn or whatever. This is in Lincoln, RI.
Good Luck
 
Clear Precision Dental

Clear Precision Dental

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Thanks for the good word!
 
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DDDental

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I finally learned how to post photos here

Or maybe, I didn't, this Photobucket is PIA.

Ok let me try. These are Wironium frames


 
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Mr. Clear Precision. Updated and expanded.
Took the Wironium course. Could not afford it (I'm in CA) . HATED the fact I had to go 2500 miles X2.I accidentally did a brilliant thing and went.

Did it anyway after casting sample of Wironium - clasps can be bent 180 degrees but are still springy.Put my eyes back in head.Casts perfect with a torch....a small torch up to 6 ingots weight. Note: 6 ingots default weight works for anything.Including full palates. Bego's high tech casting
$30K machine uses only 2 sprues.Does not work consistently with centrifigal; go with 4-6 sprues of 6 gauge or 4 sprues of 6 guage and 2 of 8 guage.Connect the tips of free clasps to the nearest frame member. Keep sprues long or you will get a pit. ALWAYS works...but of course you will always get some trash or something in the casting. Solution:

Casting defects: I will write more on welding later...like a book's worth of how-not-tos but because we are talking partials a TIG is something you need to save for...

I did a LOT iof research on partial welding and found theSchutz TIG welder is fantastic and among the hardest things I have ever learned to do.Terrible and misleading instruction book.Fantastic machine.Main people at Schutz are not techs. Ask for the Germans.About 3 weekends of sheer misery determining settings, overcoming 3500 degree cracking, avoiding warps, rewriting their instruction book. At least 3 months of use for full proficiency. NP or chrome soldering machines were invented by the same person who invented the boomerang to seduce you with a cheap price and later hit you with poor fusion and weak joints.I REGULARLY weld tee-nincey clasps of the same or disimilar metals, Hawley retainer wires, retention as well as broken-in-two major connectors - YES - I mean upper partial wide palates - but you an really re-weld a cut sewing needle.Stainless steel wire to chrome -perfect.Lasers are the most versatile but $, many breakable parts, complicated and completely unneccessary for 99%usual lab work. When the dentists-from-hell wants a design change after casting the frame just cut, recast new part and weld - or use stock stainless steel.You still get to call them bad names but now you don't have to stay up night redoing the whole thing. The sheer energy of a TIG welder on a partial frame covers ground fast....and also about a 1/3 the price of a laser - real world cost about $10K including tanks, regulator and a stock of welding wire - you use a LOT of wire/gas learning. Very little afterward....and as a bonus I weld 99% of my C&B frames - no special oval rings, no weird spruing, no cut and reassemble. Passive fits to die for.I also just paid for the unit in outsource repairs to a neighbor removable only labs over about 3 years.New Schutz welder now has twice the power of mine....car fenders? Major consumable = tungston welding tips @ about $12.50 each. W/ experience one lasts about a month. One day to start. Also I didn't tell you this but in the Rio Grande Jewelry catalog the "Orion" (competitor TIG) 1mm tungsten tips are $30 for 15 and work better.Tank of argon post learn-how lasts 6 months- year. Beware TIG welders whose tips move on their own to make the spark. ONE MOVING TARGET IS ENOUGH. Be a big boy and stick the tip to your work until you don't (harmless if you do, just grind off in 1 second). If you forget the ground clip you will get shocked - feels like carpet static shock (not for pacemaker users). Scares the padookie out of you the first time ( makes your muscles in your hands jerk slightly)but we respond wonderfully well to pain and you decide almost immediately not to forget any more.But I digress. more later on weld joint design, etc.

Wiroplus S is their best for partials. See my partial suggestion for rapid fire w/out blowout.Balance arm carefully.

Before I went to BEGO school I was the best partial tech I ever knew in 35 years. Schmidt is better.He is also patient and not an ubermenchen. Listen hard about that 2 degree survey tool. Make your own.

Previously used Wironit and it is in the brittle Vitallium family and WILL break easily. After using Wironium you will throw rocks at Wironit. Also welds well with a TIG.Also dentists don't break it when adjusting.

Bego people are VERY hospitable albeit in the middle of nowhere.Nice lab facility at warehouse..They were giving you a free kilo of Wironium with the course. Ask before you go...take that off your net cost.Also they know cheaper hotels close other than the upscale ones they first suggest. Take the airbus(taxi) from the airport.Loooong way from airport but cheap. No need to rent a car.Bego will pick you up at the hotel.

Bon Voyage. You are about to do a very smart thing that will halve your hassles.
 
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kcdt

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The only problem I have with wironium as a product is that frame labs charge a small fortune to fabricate them for you, but don't seem to care enough about consistency to make you feel you got you money's worth. I don't mind paying a premium price, but if every 3rd frame comes back looking like it was finished with a fire ax, then hell yeah, I mind a lot.
I've subbed frames out to a small Northern California lab for over 10 years now- GREAT work, reasonably priced. It may not be wironium (its JD, I believe),but then again, I don't get back crap I have to bend.
Just once in the last decade I had a wironium frame made by a nationally known Great Lakes area lab( it was congenitally missing laterals and I needed to match a heavily characterized/ calcified dentition),so I could fire Shofu Halo on it. Cost me $400 and I was not impressed. Never again.
 
neila

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I have used Bego in my lab for 25 years. First in South Africa and now in Canada. You cannot beat Wironium Plus, it is light weight and very easy to adjust. We now use the Sensable system and cast with Bego investment and Wironium Plus. The fits are outstanding and you can just imagine the consistent fit and thicknesses you can achieve with this combination. My 2 cents worth.
 
prodigy1

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Wironium Frames

Hi,
My name is Albert and I am the owner of Prodigy Dental and I make wironium partial frameworks. I have been producing Bego frames for over 15 yrs. please contact me at [email protected] or 706.363.0411 so I can tell you about my lab. We offer very competative prices, nothing like the prices mention above.
Here is some of my work (copy and paste link): Flickr: Prodigy Dental's Photostream

Albert
Owner
Prodigy Dental
 
CYNOSURER

CYNOSURER

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I have such a hard time taking good photos of partial frames.

4027330999


I notice in this pic of yours Albert that there appears to be a lot of dirt in the retention areas the right clasp looks like it's not touching and the finish lines looks soft and fuzzy. It's hard to tell how much of that is photo problems or workmanship. I like sharp well defined finsih lines. But getting them to photograph well has been a headache for me.

Here's a link to a series of shots of a sales 'sample' case I made for another lab. Tim's Sample

Note: all shots of the same case at the same time. Different lighting and stuff but sometimes the bar looks like it's scratch city...sometimes things look too shiny or to dull or soft. I particularly like the color changes and how the stipple looks like a casting nightmare in one shot and only vaguely looks like the stipple I see with my eyes in only another shot.
 
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CYNOSURER

CYNOSURER

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I cant seem to get Alberts pic to show up but I am refering to the last lower in his photostream.
 
kcdt

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Looking at max frameworks off the model does nothing for me. The can look like Tiffany made them and not fit, in which case they're useless.
I think Wironium is a great alloy, but just because a lab uses it is not the first reason I'd have to use them. Quality and consistency isn't dependent on using Wironium, as I said earlier.
 
Brian

Brian

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Ken,

I use Dan over at D&D.. I use him exclusively.. Dan, Dan is my man and he uses Wironium!
 
prodigy1

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Guarantee!!!

Send us a case and if you do not like our work, you do not have to pay for it!
All we need is an opportunity to show you what we can do.

Albert
Prodigy Dental
[email protected]
706.363.0411
 

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