Anterior Zirconia Monolithic

[user name]

Yes that's a name that corporate came up with for NDX (National Dentex Labs) Its not a material, it's a brand....

So, its the same specs, same material as Imagine?

 

[eyeloveteeth]

i'm a bit confused here...how can there be so many variance if there really 3-4 providers of Zirconia?

Tosoh Zpex (which i know has spawned Cubex, Crystal Ultra, Sagemaxx, Ivoclar - except i don't think ivoclar has a Zpex used line yet)

Noritake Kuraray (I don't know where they are getting their ore from but i know it's not Tosoh)

then a few Chinese and Italian companies that have banded together, and one VERY large Chinese company.


So that being said, most of the Translucent "XT" or X2 Zr i see if of the Tosoh variety....how can they all turn out so different? Is it the way they manufacture the pucks that is creating different results?

i also know there is isostatic pressing and immulsion and then some sort of weird hybrid of the two.

our zirconia stock is more complicated than our porcelain.... different brand for different situation/color.... at least our porcelain is only relegated to creation and ivoclar

 

[user name]

So, its the same specs, same material as Imagine?

Let me re-state my question...

Can anyone start putting together a list of what different named zirconias are actually the same?

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

Let me re-state my question...

Can anyone start putting together a list of what different named zirconias are actually the same?

that would be a good list! hope someone has one to share

 

[esamuelr]

that would be a good list! hope someone has one to share

That is an impossible list. Any lab can buy any zirconia and put any name on it.

I could be XYZ lab and using Imagine zirconia from Jensen but sell it under the name XYZ+ zirconia crowns. When the clinician see's the invoice he see's XYZ+ zirconia crown, not Imagine Zirconia Crown.

Or I could be Username Lab using Sagemaxx and selling my Crowns as USER+ zirconia crowns. The Dr. would never know they are Sagemaxx.

That list is impossible unless you look up every Lab and find out what they call "their" zirconia restorations and then who is the actual supplier or manufacturer of the Zirconia.

 

[rkm rdt]

I am honest with my drs and provide on each invoice the identalloy sticker of the manufacturer.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

That is an impossible list. Any lab can buy any zirconia and put any name on it.

I could be XYZ lab and using Imagine zirconia from Jensen but sell it under the name XYZ+ zirconia crowns. When the clinician see's the invoice he see's XYZ+ zirconia crown, not Imagine Zirconia Crown.

Or I could be Username Lab using Sagemaxx and selling my Crowns as USER+ zirconia crowns. The Dr. would never know they are Sagemaxx.

That list is impossible unless you look up every Lab and find out what they call "their" zirconia restorations and then who is the actual supplier or manufacturer of the Zirconia.

i think what user is looking for, is information about puck brands such as sagemax, who buy powdered zirconia for pressing into pucks. this powder can only come form a very small number of suppliers. if cubex, sagemax, jensen, heaney, talladium all come from an identical source and actually are identical product just labelled differently.

in that example i'm certain that couldnt be true for those brands because we know at least one of those presses pucks in the USA, and most others press pucks in Germany or China.

as a lab i am well aware of how my lab's brand perpetuates itself through the use of relabeling the zirconia with my own distinguishable name. its smart business to do so.

i would use my powerful searching ability of the internet but i'm not going to for two reasons: 1 i am too lazy, and 2 i don't see the benefit. it really doesnt matter to me. whether XT from jensen and cubex are identical or not is of no importance. not to me anyway. because these companies offer partial solutions; buy our pucks, and/OR buy the liquid. you dont buy a kit. nevermind the fact that even if you had to buy a kit, every lab would look at the results and go hmmm, haaaa, maybe i should do it differently, because i'm a finnicky ashole and a special snowflake.

so no, i can't care.

 

[CatamountRob]

........because i'm a finnicky ashole and a special snowflake.

so no, i can't care.

Agreed.

 

[rkm rdt]

Geeze CHL,it took me at least 25 years to get my snark on.

You've done it in less than half that time. You're a quick study.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

im never nice before noon.

 

[user name]

So where do the pucks come from? Are there manufacturing centers or do the suppliers buy the powder and press it in some back room? There must be some trade show or secret meetings where the makers show their wares and the names we know buy it up?, and when they do, is a particular Zr proprietary so only they have it?

 

[Patrick Coon]

i'm a bit confused here...how can there be so many variance if there really 3-4 providers of Zirconia?

Tosoh Zpex (which i know has spawned Cubex, Crystal Ultra, Sagemaxx, Ivoclar - except i don't think ivoclar has a Zpex used line yet)

Noritake Kuraray (I don't know where they are getting their ore from but i know it's not Tosoh)

then a few Chinese and Italian companies that have banded together, and one VERY large Chinese company.


So that being said, most of the Translucent "XT" or X2 Zr i see if of the Tosoh variety....how can they all turn out so different? Is it the way they manufacture the pucks that is creating different results?

i also know there is isostatic pressing and immulsion and then some sort of weird hybrid of the two.

our zirconia stock is more complicated than our porcelain.... different brand for different situation/color.... at least our porcelain is only relegated to creation and ivoclar

Yes, a lot of companies buy the raw materials from a few zirconia powder suppliers (Tosoh),but they are buying powders and combining them along with other colorants and materials. This is why they are so different. The HT materials are about 50-50 Cubic and Tetragonal zirconia with a Yttrium content greater than 9% by weight. The amount of Cubic phase powder (Zpex S-m-i-l-e) and Yttrium oxide are what really control and affect the translucency. More Cubic, More Yttrium oxide equals more translucency and less strength.

The Ivoclar/Wieland Zenostar MT is our own mix of the Zpex S-m-i-l-e and Zpex along with a little less Yttrium oxide. Again we buy the raw powders, then mix them in accordance to our "recipe" and produce the disks in our Somerset, NJ facility.

(did I mention how much I dislike how this forum automatically changes words to Emoji)

 

[eyeloveteeth]

Yes, a lot of companies buy the raw materials from a few zirconia powder suppliers (Tosoh),but they are buying powders and combining them along with other colorants and materials. This is why they are so different. The HT materials are about 50-50 Cubic and Tetragonal zirconia with a Yttrium content greater than 9% by weight. The amount of Cubic phase powder (Zpex S-m-i-l-e) and Yttrium oxide are what really control and affect the translucency. More Cubic, More Yttrium oxide equals more translucency and less strength.

The Ivoclar/Wieland Zenostar MT is our own mix of the Zpex S-m-i-l-e and Zpex along with a little less Yttrium oxide. Again we buy the raw powders, then mix them in accordance to our "recipe" and produce the disks in our Somerset, NJ facility.

(did I mention how much I dislike how this forum automatically changes words to Emoji)

Thanks for clearing that up! - i was actually fully aware of that. ALSO, Ivoclar is one of few companies that re-granulates the Zpex before putting it into the presses for your pucks.

say hi to Dmitri for me

 

[eyeloveteeth]

So where do the pucks come from? Are there manufacturing centers or do the suppliers buy the powder and press it in some back room? There must be some trade show or secret meetings where the makers show their wares and the names we know buy it up?, and when they do, is a particular Zr proprietary so only they have it?

the machine to make pucks is actually not that expensive but it is time consuming, so you have to be able to scale. (literally imagine thinking bad) - the better the equipment the more consistent it'll be puck to puck.

Secondly, Tosoh charges an arm and leg for small quantities, you have to be dealing in Ivoclar amounts to really make it worth while. Their PO for Zpex and the regular Tosoh is insane.

Remember, some of the super cheap zirconia is because the yttrium ore refinery may not have as dedicated of a process. (not to knock on those products, just saying credit is due where it's due)

 

[rkm rdt]

It appears that we have some graduates from Puck U.

 

[user name]

Id like to see some place making the pucks. Also would like to know where the powders come from. Also, what other industries and products are using this stuff.

Just curious.

http://www.tosoh.com/our-products/advanced-materials/zirconia-powders

 

[KIM]

So where do the pucks come from? Are there manufacturing centers or do the suppliers buy the powder and press it in some back room? There must be some trade show or secret meetings where the makers show their wares and the names we know buy it up?, and when they do, is a particular Zr proprietary so only they have it?

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment...does what you're asking really matter? Focus on a material and supplier that help you achieve the results you're looking for (Pat is completely accurate in all he said, Tosoh powders aren't purchased in a finished disc and "Relabeled").

God knows that if all that of the posts above don't create enough variables, add in different coloring liquids AND......wait for it!!!!!!....

..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
The incredible variable that sintering furnaces play, you will spend the rest of your life bouncing around pulling your hair out.......

 

[user name]

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment...does what you're asking really matter? Focus on a material and supplier that help you achieve the results you're looking for (Pat is completely accurate in all he said, Tosoh powders aren't purchased in a finished disc and "Relabeled").

God knows that if all that of the posts above don't create enough variables, add in different coloring liquids AND......wait for it!!!!!!....
View attachment 23468
..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
The incredible variable that sintering furnaces play, you will spend the rest of your life bouncing around pulling your hair out.......

Some bodys doing it. It all started with curiosity.

Off topic, but Im also very curious about growing algae with LEDs. CO2 scrubber, O2 generator and edible. That's the thinking that's going to provide sustainability for space travel...not just packing dehydrated food. Im a thinker. not a good one, but Im trying.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

sagemax's sales video, shows a glimmer of the cold isostatic pressing process but thats about as much as you'll get outside of an instructional video and re-imagining the process from the ground up, or outright revealing the process used by the manufacturer which may be too detailed to be of any use.

suffice it to say you have to form the powder into a puck shape and evacuate any variance of density thereafter. its likely the loosely formed pucks are cold isostatic pressed but probably not without a lot of effort put into completely isolating the pucks from moisture in a cold wet press. the hot press just sounds like a dumb idea and may result in fully sintering pucks for all i know.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

http://www.easeldentallab.com/images/inspirezrsolid.pdf pg 3