Zirkonzahn or medit?

[le-ant]

Hi all. Our lab is looking at scanners and milling machines. We've been looking at zirkonzahn and medit at the moment and need a little help choosing. On paper both scanners are accurate to 10 micron, but I've heard that in independent testing the zirkonzahn scanner wasn't as accurate as advertised. Can anyone confirm this? I like that the zirkonzahn system is a complete system, but I'm looking for the most accurate scanner for a reasonable outlay. If the medit identica blue is more accurate, can anyone suggest a good milling machine for wax, zirconia and titanium? The Roland dwx-50 looks good but as far as I know, can't mill titanium, but some of the the zirkonzahn milling machines can. Any input would be much appreciated!!

 

[primus]

I have not heard happy reviews about the ZZ system. Don @ Contours and Shade in NC could answer some of your questions about that system. Maybe he'd sell it to ya? LOL

The Medit Blue will be here in Virgina next week to play with if you want.

We pre-sold some, and have some will extras. $21k for the scanner and CAD.

$17k for the SE series Medit scanner. Both are good.

What do you want to mill from Ti?

 

[MDTECH]

Medit, ZZ both of them trash, buy 3 shape
Roland milling good for 2 years after you will have to buy a new roland, good luck

 

[primus]

Oh, OK. Medit is trash?

I like it.

 

[cadfan]

Scanner accuracy depend on the stars you see it most of the times very small at the end of the technical data sheet ! sometimes they mean a single measuring ( one foto) sometimes the resolution over the measuring diameter but it means never ever the hole model.So if the volume accuracy is 15 my plus the single accuracy of the stumps and the resolution of the matching algorithms.
Ill think the blue is maybe two times better than the ZZ but ZZ works with smooth off files in an integrated system its not only the scan resolution
although the interface between construction and milling. So with the medit you have a real good scanner with fantastic price so your focus is on the milling engine and the adaption which is sometimes difficult depends on the support for the mill and camsoftware.
On the other side a semi closed system ( additional cost material burs are more expensive) with good adaption between all parts and easier to use dont know how the support is in us.With an open system you have more options but some times its harder to know whats behind all these possibilitys to find the right bottom. If you by open look at the support especially the camsoftware and mill. A friend of mine is very satisfied with his system ( ZZ) but he knows how to mill he had a few years DCs with sintered zirkon i am satisfied with my medit scanner and the mill most off the times but today i would look more on mill and cam support by guys that are not " only " reseller and work with this mill and cam

 

[MDTECH]

Oh, OK. Medit is trash huh?

You have any experience or data to back up your statement?

Why spend 3x as much for a scanner/CAD when you can have the same thing for much less??

The medit works excellent. exocad is superior to 3shape. Outsells 3shape globally for quite a while now.

You have no reason to make such a statement IMO. Based on what, exactly?? Feelings?

I guess you have bought (or your boss bought) a 3shape and now you feel everything else is junk? LOL Just because..??

I think all 3shape laser scanners are turds. Practically impossible to sell as used now.
They are moving away from laser (finally!) and using better system with structured-light. Still waaay too expensive. Cannot scan an articulated model still! LOL
All Medit can scan articulated model set. The scanner runs on it's own software if you want to sell just the scanner in the future and keep your CAD license. Impossible with 3shape. There really is nothing better about 3shape....at all!

The Roland....yes. It is a toy and nothing like a real CNC mill. A disposable toy.

Yes i have both, and also i have a dental wing and smart optic but
i wrote my experience. Im not a seller or something

3x more expensive? No way max 2. lol

3shape expensive? Very expensive! + the licence fee..... crazy. but for me the best

Im sorry if you feel your self bad about my answer but you have to approve ... we are all different.

 

[MDTECH]

Scanner accuracy depend on the stars you see it most of the times very small at the end of the technical data sheet ! sometimes they mean a single measuring ( one foto) sometimes the resolution over the measuring diameter but it means never ever the hole model.So if the volume accuracy is 15 my plus the single accuracy of the stumps and the resolution of the matching algorithms.
Ill think the blue is maybe two times better than the ZZ but ZZ works with smooth off files in an integrated system its not only the scan resolution
although the interface between construction and milling. So with the medit you have a real good scanner with fantastic price so your focus is on the milling engine and the adaption which is sometimes difficult depends on the support for the mill and camsoftware.
On the other side a semi closed system ( additional cost material burs are more expensive) with good adaption between all parts and easier to use dont know how the support is in us.With an open system you have more options but some times its harder to know whats behind all these possibilitys to find the right bottom. If you by open look at the support especially the camsoftware and mill. A friend of mine is very satisfied with his system ( ZZ) but he knows how to mill he had a few years DCs with sintered zirkon i am satisfied with my medit scanner and the mill most off the times but today i would look more on mill and cam support by guys that are not " only " reseller and work with this mill and cam

u right

 

[primus]

Yes i have both, and also i have a dental wing and smart optic but
i wrote my experience. Im not a seller or something

3x more expensive? No way max 2. lol

3shape expensive? Very expensive! + the licence fee..... crazy. but for me the best

Im sorry if you feel your self bad about my answer but you have to approve ... we are all different.

Medit with exocad.....$16,900 from me. DONE!

3Shape....$40k+ plus five years of payments to keep it running......Total....over $50k! YES 3x more expensive. Exactly what I said. Do not argue with me.
You do not have my approval, and I do not feel bad. Let's just keep to facts, OK.

I too have owned SmartOptiks (Two of them) and Open Technologies, and Nobil Metal, and Breuckman, and KaVo, Three Lava scanners, another open Steinbichler (First in the USA),Maybe Twenty Medits, Dental Wings, CynoVAD, CynoProd, etc....

 

[RileyS]

MDTech, your opinion is valid and well appreciated by 95%. Primus, aka *** and Scott, only accepts one point of view and that's his. He's a smart dude though.
I'm with 3shape. I've usednobel scanners, straumann, sirona inlab, medit with exocad, and I find 3shp easiest to use still and results under high power scope show amazing fits using a Roland mill.

 

[BobCDT]

3Shape has been the worldwide leader in sales, product development and evey market they have entered. Started with hearing aids and moved to scan design for dental labs. Keep I n mind the most recent market entry from 3Shape is the Trios Intraoral scan. If 3Shape has the same success in the IOS market they have gained in others the opportunity for best in class intergration between Docs and labs will be a reality.
3Shape scanners and cad start at about $20k for the D500. The other models go up from there.

As for Roland, we have well over 100 DWX50's in the market. This mill is a simple to use and is a highly accurate workhorse. Go read the other threads here on DLN and you will find many very happy end users. No need to take only my word for it. Only down side, dry only. Roland also come with a 2 year factory warranty. In addition, they really support the warranty. In the rare event of a problem there are never questions from Roland about what caused a particular proble. They never point fingers at the operator. It's always about getting the end user up and running. I don't believe any other mill comes with a warranty of more than a year. Roland warranties the spindle for 2000 hours. We have Roland's at CAP that have more than 3000 hours and they are milling great.
If your looking to mill metals look at Imes.
Lastly, don't buy anything closed!

 

[cadfan]

If you use a laser-scanner its not possible to see during the scan if its right or not, if your object moves during the scanning you get another objekt ( had this the margin has 1,5 mm gap at one side) if you do the same with a structured light you see it. If you have bad fit working with a milling center first question calibration. With a structured scanner you see it before matching you see although noise from the surface to much light , surface color whatever. If i got bad fit from a milling center before i bought my own mill i was 100 % sure this is not my mistake.Sometimes i showed them by using geomagic and than the great bla bla send it a second time.Since i mill by my own i know these are mistakes in the milling strategie not from my scanner.I tried a lot milling centers the problems are still the same. 3 shape makes a good job since they got a kick in the as from exocad and maybe it works real well with roland but 3 shape is only king in cad not in scanning and roland is not king in construction and technical data maybe that works brilliant but for me counts primary tech. data and good work. Without repeatable resolution
no repeatable work for sure it works but no implant factory would work on this subjective feeling and thats why we talk so much about it if you have clear data for resolution and repeatability like this big horses röders . dmg, haas,datron gave us we dont talk about it.And 3 shape and Roland are not the leaders in creating clear data sheet s their is a lot of fog.

 

[BobCDT]

Hey Cadfan,
I'm in agreement that DMG and Roders of the world are great mills. However, there is also a business component around a mill purchase. Looking at an ROI for a Roders to mill $29 zirconia copings and $39 FZ simply does not work. In addition, the application simply does not require this type of mill.
Would one buy an 18 wheeler to move a laptop?
In addition, a spindle replacement for a DMG is about $40k! Justify that every couple of years.
From a technical perspective, with proper integration and milling strategy one can mill highly accurate screw retained, full arch, full contour zirconia restorations on a $30k DWX50.
For this application there is no need for the 18 wheeler?

 

[cadfan]

Hey Bob
In Germany you get zi copings milled on röders 27 dollars i am not talking about these big machines i am talking about data sheet and repeatability and their is a lot of fog by some small machines and the factory's are able to do that its simple to veryfi maybe not as simple as a scanner but fog all over, Screw retained over a 30 degree ti interface is nice but not impressive.The industry is not interested in clarity-No 18 wheeler needed just the info you get when you by a new car, you can drive from east coast to west coast is a little bit to less.

 

[BobCDT]

Hey Bob
In Germany you get zi copings milled on röders 27 dollars i am not talking about these big machines i am talking about data sheet and repeatability and their is a lot of fog by some small machines and the factory's are able to do that its simple to veryfi maybe not as simple as a scanner but fog all over, Screw retained over a 30 degree ti interface is nice but not impressive.The industry is not interested in clarity-No 18 wheeler needed just the info you get when you by a new car, you can drive from east coast to west coast is a little bit to less.

If you can mill great fitting full arch screw retained zirconia with divergence of less than 30 degrees and everything less complex than that you are covered for more than 99% of all Zi restorations. For milling all soft materials Roland not only works very well, it's also a great revenue generator and profit center. Not to say other mills are not.

 

[zero_zero]

Hey Cadfan,

what's your current setup scanner/CAD/CAM/mill ?

 

[le-ant]

Thanks for all the replies. I've looked at 3shape, but to be honest for a small lab like ours that kind of outlay on a scanner alone isn't going to happen, but I've heard good things about them. I'm in the UK, so a trip to Virginia might be awkward, but thanks for the offer Primus! There's someone not far from me willing to let me have a look at the medit scanners in action, so I'll probably take a look and take it from there. It's a shame about the zirkonzahn stuff. We've been to a dental show this week and spent quite a while at their stand looking at the software and the milling machine(m1). They are offering the scanner and m5 milling machine, which can mill everything, for 42000 euros. The reason I'm looking for something that can mill non precious is for large span pfm work. I was assuming milling would solve distortion issues involved with loss wax casting. Other than that the roland sounds good, considering the price. Any other suggestions for an user friendly milling machine for around the price of the roland?

 

[cadfan]

The M 1 25 000 Euro heavy wet is that time not on the market maybe one year and M 5 is miles away from a roland you can although work with a medit scanner or any other and M 1 or M 5 the limitation is the blankforn but they proof each material and bur and look for new one if its not right but this is support and science and cheap so therefore you have to pay not by buying the mill but on the material side each zikon crown is ca 4-5 Euro more expensive ( material)If you want to by any other mill the support is the problem a few built only mills no camsoftware a few are only resellers of mills some although camsoftware are they milling too to undsterstand what you are talking about in the future (problems) ??? have a look at the imes its the only bigger mill factory that sells although camsoftware and scanner in your price region.At the end 2 links what M 5 can do one is a friend

http://www.zirkonzahn.com/en/galleries/zirconia-experts/frank-moeller

its zirkon on zirkon try it with roland

http://www.dental-online-community.de/index.php?&navID=71&pageID=80&lang=de-de&angeboteID=340

he has the system short time but hes one of the leader in the manual system look whats possible just for info you have to understand how mills think thin veneers out of pmma just pressed amazing and the big cases

 

[le-ant]

cadfan! I think good support is important too. I'm impressed with zirkonzahn as a company, I just don't want to be blinded by their marketing, which is second to none. I think prettau zirconia is the nicest I've seen, but nexxzr seems popular too. I've not seen the nexxzr in the flesh, can anyone give a comparison between nexxzr and prettau?

 

[NicelyMKV]

I use a medit scanner coupled with a Roland and Sum3D. I use Zirkonzahn, Sagemax and Zenostar. Complete success with each. Can't mill the NP like your wanting, but I found my milled wax frameworks didn't warp? No explanation as of why? I figured the fact I didn't apply heat in joint areas by cutting and re sticking etc..

 

[cadfan]

I use a medit scanner coupled with a Roland and Sum3D. I use Zirkonzahn, Sagemax and Zenostar. Complete success with each. Can't mill the NP like your wanting, but I found my milled wax frameworks didn't warp? No explanation as of why? I figured the fact I didn't apply heat in joint areas by cutting and re sticking etc..

Try single tooth cutter for wax and pmma real nice surface and fit they need ca. 1and half speed of the normal so normal speed 20000 speed it to 30000 the factory told me 40000 but i find two times faster is to much.try and error

http://www.acurata.de/en/home/#/28

Dental lab catalog page 28 dont know if they have although 4 mm stock