Some potentially silly questions...

[heykrazi]

Hi everyone

Despite using these forums as a source of information on-and-off for a while now, I've only just registered and this is my first post!

I'm only new to digital dentistry and am trying to do some research on behalf of our small-ish lab (soon to grow!) to see how best to equip ourselves over the short-medium term.

I have some bits of preliminary information, but there are massive gaps in my knowledge about CAD/CAM systems. I've tried finding the following things out elsewhere, but customer service reps really just rehash the same bits of info found online... hopefully you guys can help! ... a million questions, I know, but if you can shed light on anything please do


1. if a dentist sends us a digitally scanned impression from their Sirona Bluecam AC, can we import that into CAD software (eg. 3shape) that generates an open file that can be used in non-Sirona CAM/mill?
...in other words, are Sirona intra-oral scans 'locked' to Sirona inLab milling machines? or do I have the versatility to mill Sirona dentists' restorations in a milling machine of my choice?


2. the opposite question to the one above: is the Sirona inLab milling machine 'locked' to Sirona scans? eg. if a dentist sends me a Lava COS/iTero scan, and I perform CAD in 3shape/Dental Wings, can I still mill the requested monolithic restoration (eg. eMax) in Sirona inLab MC XL, for example?


3. how can we deal with Lava COS intra-oral scans? can the scans come directly to us where we mark the margins and perform CAD in 3shape, then send the scan on to 3M for model milling, and (potentially) simultaneously outsource the fabrication of metal copings for PFM (if required)? or does the scan go to 3M first, where they mark the margins, and then send the physical model to us?


4. how can my lab service dentists that want a Lava restoration but send me a digitally scanned impression from a non-Lava COS (eg. a Sirona or iTero scan)? if we receive an iTero scan from one of our dentists, for example, can I perform CAD in 3shape and send this on to a nearby Lava design and milling centre where they perform CAM and mill?


5. for milling eMax, we need a milling machine from a partner of Ivoclar... which of this subset of milling machines is best? we plan on having 1 machine to mill eMax and 1 machine to mill non-Lava zirconia. What do people think of Wieland Zenotec T1 machine with automation unit?


6. is the Sirona 4-axis inLab MC XL machine good/accurate enough to be dedicated to milling eMax (assuming it can work with scans from non-Sirona intra-oral scanners)? can the Sirona inLab MC XL mill, for example, 5 separate eMax crowns for 5 separate patients at once?


7. Dental Wings or 3shape: lab scanner? I know the Dental Wings 7series can scan impressions and has a high level of accuracy - how does this compare to 3shape's range of scanners? CAD software? do either DWOS or Dental Designer have the capability to export every scan file from a dentist as open, giving us the freedom to mill in any machine?


SORRY FOR THE ESSAY... I don't expect anyone to devote themselves to my 'cause', but I'm just struggling to find the answers to these sorts of questions, probably because they are obvious/common knowledge.

Thanks in advance for any help everyone!

 

[doug]

Mark?

 

[heykrazi]

Hmmm? I ain't 'Mark'...

 

[heykrazi]

...but any help you can provide would be great!

 

[Slipstream]

1. if a dentist sends us a digitally scanned impression from their Sirona Bluecam AC, can we import that into CAD software (eg. 3shape) that generates an open file that can be used in non-Sirona CAM/mill?
...in other words, are Sirona intra-oral scans 'locked' to Sirona inLab milling machines? or do I have the versatility to mill Sirona dentists' restorations in a milling machine of my choice?

www.3shape.com/.../3shape-and-sirona-interface.aspx - the interface from Sirona is about 3000 euro


2. the opposite question to the one above: is the Sirona inLab milling machine 'locked' to Sirona scans? eg. if a dentist sends me a Lava COS/iTero scan, and I perform CAD in 3shape/Dental Wings, can I still mill the requested monolithic restoration (eg. eMax) in Sirona inLab MC XL, for example?


3. how can we deal with Lava COS intra-oral scans? can the scans come directly to us where we mark the margins and perform CAD in 3shape, then send the scan on to 3M for model milling, and (potentially) simultaneously outsource the fabrication of metal copings for PFM (if required)? or does the scan go to 3M first, where they mark the margins, and then send the physical model to us?

You get raw scan data as if you had scanned the model yourself - and can then do whatever you want with it

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...7zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=lava_cos_3shape_pr.pdf


4. how can my lab service dentists that want a Lava restoration but send me a digitally scanned impression from a non-Lava COS (eg. a Sirona or iTero scan)? if we receive an iTero scan from one of our dentists, for example, can I perform CAD in 3shape and send this on to a nearby Lava design and milling centre where they perform CAM and mill?

If you can get it onto the 3Shape design software, you can manufacture Lava restorations from it


5. for milling eMax, we need a milling machine from a partner of Ivoclar... which of this subset of milling machines is best? we plan on having 1 machine to mill eMax and 1 machine to mill non-Lava zirconia. What do people think of Wieland Zenotec T1 machine with automation unit?

Not my real area of expertise, but "most" zirconia milling can be achieved with 3 axis - cost / benefit would apply for the few jobs you would have to outsource. You may find the 4030 does enough for your needs

6. is the Sirona 4-axis inLab MC XL machine good/accurate enough to be dedicated to milling eMax (assuming it can work with scans from non-Sirona intra-oral scanners)? can the Sirona inLab MC XL mill, for example, 5 separate eMax crowns for 5 separate patients at once?

popcorn sure someone can answer or check the MC XL thread


7. Dental Wings or 3shape: lab scanner? I know the Dental Wings 7series can scan impressions and has a high level of accuracy - how does this compare to 3shape's range of scanners? CAD software? do either DWOS or Dental Designer have the capability to export every scan file from a dentist as open, giving us the freedom to mill in any machine?

I think both systems will generate a standard open file for any milling machine that can accept them - a few will only accept their own files, their doing not DW or 3Shape's fault. 3Shape's scanners will all support impression scanning as an add on package - if it's not discounted when you buy the scanner, wait and see how much you really need the impression scanning - you may find it's not worth the extra cost.


SORRY FOR THE ESSAY... I don't expect anyone to devote themselves to my 'cause', but I'm just struggling to find the answers to these sorts of questions, probably because they are obvious/common knowledge.

Thanks in advance for any help everyone!

If I have missed anything - ask again

Colin

 

[Mark Jackson]

Not a lot I can add to Colin's reply. He nailed it

 

[heykrazi]

...1 more thing

Thanks Colin (et al)!
Hope you had a good Easter.

Really appreciate your responses.

I still have one main thing to clear up though... related to question 1...

1. As far as I can tell, the 3shape-Sirona agreement has resulted in an interface that, currently, allows in-lab 3shape 3D scans to be imported into Sirona CAD, and, in the future, will allow 3shape CAD software to communicate directly with the Sirona inLab mill. This suggests that the Sirona milling machine is not locked to Sirona digital impressions, but that it can mill any restoration that can be designed in 3shape CAD (assuming the dentist's intra-oral scan can be imported into 3shape CAD software) = the answer to question 2.

But what about Sirona intra-oral scans - i.e. digital impressions taken by dentists with the Sirona BlueCam Acquisition Centre (intra-oral scanner)?
If they send these to my lab, I will perform CAD within Sirona CAD software (currently) or within 3shape CAD software (in the near future?)... and then will I be able to mill in a machine of my choice? or will I be restricted to milling these sorts of cases in a Sirona inLab mill?

I'm not keen on the Sirona milling machine(s),and so need to know if there are certain cases (i.e. cases scanned by dentists using a Sirona intra-oral scanner) which MUST be milled in them.

Thx once again!! :smile:2

 

[Slipstream]

From 3Shapes press release

The initial solution now launched enables labs with the required scanner configuration to apply the scans of the 3Shape 3D scanner in a completely integrated production workflow with Sirona's CAD software, milling machines and extensive range of material offerings such as IPS e.max.

This is great news for labs that use either 3Shape or Sirona systems and wish to broaden their equipment and material options by, for example, employing 3shape's 3D scanners in an integrated production workflow with Sirona's inLab™.

Flemming Thorup, CEO at 3Shape says: "We see this as a significant dental industry agreement that teams together two leading technology powers of CAD/CAM dentistry. We recognize the high value of Sirona's systems and new interfaces with 3Shape products are pairing the market's most advanced devices to achieve elite scan, design and production solutions for the benefit of dental labs worldwide," concludes Flemming Thorup.

The initial interface only enables the use of scan data from certain 3Shape scanners in Sirona's inLab system. Both companies anticipate that additional interfaces will be mutually defined in the future towards extending the compatibility range between 3Shape and Sirona systems. Interfaces will be product-specific, and communicate through the general protocol/format mutually agreed upon between 3Shape and Sirona Dental Systems, Inc.

The interface requires an enabling of the interface module in the 3Shape as well as the Sirona software. Users who wish to benefit from this opportunity should contact the Supplier who provided their specific system for explicit information about availability of the interfaces for their system, and if available, how to obtain the correct software modules.

As I read it - broadly, you should be able to design on a 3shape and mill on the Sirona - I can no documentation to support what the oral scanner does or is compatible with - you need to pop that one at your Sirona rep. We have taken Sirona model scans into 3Shape for designing but there is little need to do so commercially. It would be very limiting if you could only mill Sirona from the chairside scanner and I doubt they would have limited their market by doing that they get a fee no matter what happens to the scan.
If I get my hands on a one of the scanners, I will report back.

 

[paulg100]

at the moment you can only use the 3shape scan data with the mcxl (with a damn expensive dongle!)

The actual design needs to be done with the inlab software.

Aslo you can only export scan data in STL from the inlab software, not the actual design file.

Sirona seem to be putting alot of time and money in to developing their software at the moment (to little to late!) which makes me wonder if they will ever open up the mcxl to 3shape design data.

 

[RileyS]

U can get a good feel of how people feel about sirona on this forum, both good and bad. My thoughts are, why would u want to get involved with a company that closes u off from a wide range of options? Because u want to pay more money per restoration? Go with 3 shape or DW and that will allow u to send or mill wherever.

 

[heykrazi]

Hi again everyone

In response to Colin:

We have taken Sirona model scans into 3Shape for designing but there is little need to do so commercially.

^ what do you mean by this? I thought the current interface only allowed 3shape scans to be imported and designed in Sirona software (not the other way round)?
As Paul describes:

At the moment you can only use the 3shape scan data with the mcxl (with a damn expensive dongle!). The actual design needs to be done with the inlab software...

I thought the ability to design in 3shape (from a Sirona lab scan, for example) and then send this to the inLab MC XL mill was on the horizon but still a couple months away... or is it currently a reality?

In response to Riley:

Why would u want to get involved with a company that closes u off from a wide range of options?

...I was trying to gauge whether I needed to get involved with Sirona - because I don't really want to. But there are a few Sirona Cerec dentists who have the Sirona BlueCam intra-oral scanner, and if these scans can only be milled in Sirona inLab, then my hands are tied and I will have to purchase Sirona software and the inLab mill.

 

[Slipstream]

In response to Colin:

^ what do you mean by this? I thought the current interface only allowed 3shape scans to be imported and designed in Sirona software (not the other way round)?

After a Sirona model scan the resulting scan data is a standard .stl file which you could in theory use as the basis of a restoration design. In practice if you had the 3Shape system, you would scan the model with it and design from there - the margin identification was not great on the one we tried, compared to what we are used to with native 3Shape scans.

It would only be of use if you owned a remote facility and a sirona, where you might wish to scan and forward to the main lab for design and manufacture, whilst waiting for the model to catch up by post.

Colin

 

[heykrazi]

Feeling silly

Hi again Colin...

Feeling silly - I think I'm getting lost in the semantics of your latest post.

When you say a 'Sirona model scan', do you mean a (3shape) lab scan of a Sirona model - manufactured by Infinident from a Sirona intraoral scan - or a scan of a model by a Sirona lab scanner?
I take it that you mean the former...

...if you do, what do you mean 'in theory use as the basis of a restoration design'? Isn't this what scanning models is for - so that we can design the restoration in CAD software (eg. 3shape)?

Also, when you say 'In practice if you had the 3Shape system, you would scan the model with it and design from there - the margin identification was not great on the one we tried, compared to what we are used to with native 3Shape scans' - I am confused... what does native 3shape scans mean in this context? Isn't scanning the model in a 3shape lab scanner and then designing in Dental Designer the native process?

Your last line confused me too!! '...where you might wish to scan [the model] and forward to the main lab for design and manufacture, whilst waiting for the model to catch up by post' - huh? scan the model and wait for the model to catch up by post? I am lost...

 

[Slipstream]

Hi again Colin...

Feeling silly - I think I'm getting lost in the semantics of your latest post.

When you say a 'Sirona model scan', do you mean a (3shape) lab scan of a Sirona model - manufactured by Infinident from a Sirona intraoral scan - or a scan of a model by a Sirona lab scanner?
I take it that you mean the former...


The scan was done in a Sirona scanner and then emailed to a 3Shape system for design

...if you do, what do you mean 'in theory use as the basis of a restoration design'? Isn't this what scanning models is for - so that we can design the restoration in CAD software (eg. 3shape)?

What I meant was it works, but why you would choose to do it eludes me - if you had a 3Shape scanner, you would just use it from start to finish - without full testing, who can say the restoration would fit

Also, when you say 'In practice if you had the 3Shape system, you would scan the model with it and design from there - the margin identification was not great on the one we tried, compared to what we are used to with native 3Shape scans' - I am confused... what does native 3shape scans mean in this context? Isn't scanning the model in a 3shape lab scanner and then designing in Dental Designer the native process?

I was compairing a scan done in a 3Shape (native) with an imported scan from the Sirona - because the 3Shape dental designer controls the scan in a 3Shape scanner, it has higher resolution data on the important areas and because the preps are know to it, the margins seemed to be easier to identify and for the design basis

Your last line confused me too!! '...where you might wish to scan [the model] and forward to the main lab for design and manufacture, whilst waiting for the model to catch up by post' - huh? scan the model and wait for the model to catch up by post? I am lost...

If you had multiple labs in different parts of the country but only 1 milling site, you could use an existing Sirona to get the job started quicker - you would be mad to buy a new 3Shape scanner system but take the scans from a Sirona - there is no advantage in doing so

I think where we started here was the compatibility of oral scanners and output to a Sirona mill, and to get the answer on that we need Sirona's input. Unless you are a very small operation, and $$ prevent it, the ideal would be.

Sirona Oral scan -> 3Shape dental designer -> small Zr mill or milling center

which would also allow you to

Make plaster model -> 3Shape Dental Designer -> small Zr mill or milling center

as well as

Any current oral scanner -> 3Shape Dental Designer -> small Zr mill or milling center

Better than limiting your options to 1 brand of scanner and output method

 

[heykrazi]

Success! totally understand now Colin - thank you!
Because I assumed you were talking about scanning in 3shape, as opposed to scanning in Sirona, the rest confused me...

I think where we started here was the compatibility of oral scanners and output to a Sirona mill, and to get the answer on that we need Sirona's input. Unless you are a very small operation, and $$ prevent it, the ideal would be.

Sirona Oral scan -> 3Shape dental designer -> small Zr mill or milling center

which would also allow you to

Make plaster model -> 3Shape Dental Designer -> small Zr mill or milling center

as well as

Any current oral scanner -> 3Shape Dental Designer -> small Zr mill or milling center

That first option you have - being able to design in 3shape from a Sirona oral scan - is exactly what we are after! I know we can do it with iTero & Lava intra-oral scans, Sirona remains the missing piece!

Would love someone from Sirona or who knows the answer to weigh in...!

Also, when you say small Zr mill, is this because eMax is still not worth milling in a small-medium lab setting without an 'industrial' mill such as Roeders or DMG? We are thinking we may just want to mill Zr (outsource Lava),outsource wax patterns and metal copings, press eMax in-house.

Thx Colin

 

[Slipstream]

Also, when you say small Zr mill, is this because eMax is still not worth milling in a small-medium lab setting without an 'industrial' mill such as Roeders or DMG? We are thinking we may just want to mill Zr (outsource Lava),outsource wax patterns and metal copings, press eMax in-house.

Thx Colin

I think Mark's numbers on milling emax speak for themselves, depends on where your market and talents lie, if emax is your core business, then a small wax printer may show you a better return than milling Zr yourself.

Colin

 

[heykrazi]

What exactly are Mark's numbers on milling eMax?

We haven't yet invested in milling machinery - but for a small lab such as us, are you recommending investing in a printer instead of any mill, printing wax patterns in-house and then completing in-house or outsourcing to a milling centre?

What are the numbers on milling Zirconia? More than numbers, too, I'm concerned with eMax that the quality/fit of the milled product is not up to scratch when produced in the sorts of milling machines we would be able to invest in... is Zirconia much better or still problematic quality-wise?

There are plenty of places that can print us wax patterns for cheap, so not sure if I want to invest in a wax printer. Out of interest, though, which printer(s) do you recommend?

thx again Colin - or anyone else who chimes in