Scanning Impressions and Printing Models

[McTeeth]

Carestream b&w 18K
Medit 19K ?
Planmeca 2th?

There is also quite a few orthodontists who want to sell their Trios 3colour at 18K

Orthodontists with buyers remorse?

 

[rkm rdt]

Orthodontists with buyers remorse?

Invisalign has terminated their association with 3 Shape /Trios and are offering a special price on the Itero scanner.

 

[sndmn2]

Better check if impression scanning works on your D800. I was told it wouldn't work on D850.

 

[Brandon Patrick]

I am researching to see if it is worth it for us to invest in an Asiga MAX printer and upgrade our 3Shape Dongle to the get the full restorative package which would include the Abutment Designer, Model Builder, and Impression Scanning.

We want to get a printer to take some of the pressure off the model room. We don't expect to print all our models. We just want to send some cases to the printer so we don't need to hire an extra person or pay overtime when we get really busy. We have a D800 scanner that we would use to scan the impressions and then print the models.

How is the accuracy of scanning impressions and then printing models vs scanning a stone model poured from an impression? I assume that i wouldn't need to scan the printed model to design a crown. I would be able to design directly on the virtual model resulting from the impression that was scanned...is that correct?

You can design on the impression scan as long as the interdental space isn't too tight to cause voids in the margin areas.

Different print materials have different shrinkage percentages as well. Printing hollow vs solid models makes a difference too. Some people have said they only use printed models for contacts and I've heard some say they can do the restorations on them.. nobody really shares their secrets though lol

 

[rlhhds]

Until now you mean.

There's no logical reason for a dentist not to purchase an IOS anymore.
They would spend more on pvs material in 2 years than they would on an affordable scanner these days.

Of the clients I have asked none of them had any idea what they spend on impression material.

 

[rlhhds]

Do they print any working models?

I don't know these were for their model less cases.

 

[LarryRDC]

Just sharing my experience here….. For last couple of months I’ve been testing this workflow to see if it will work for me…I’m a one man lab so I do everything from models, design and finish. (I outsource the milling) I’m using a Medit scanner ( with a 3-axis arm.) With that and their scanning software, it’s excellent at scanning impressions. Then designing In Exocad and using the Model Creator module for the printed models. (I’m also outsourcing the models, for now…)

I had to figure out how to print models from most of scenarios given to me from each client.

Scenario 1: IOS scan, duh, Obviously a no brainer for printing a model

Scenario 2: Triple tray impression. The 3-axis arm will do upper + lower + bite in 6 minutes., then design restoration/model, done.

Scenario 3: Rigid tray impression (quad or full arch) and an opposing model + bite or bite impression tray. There is a scanning strategy to do all of this and align in the Medit software as well. ( just takes an extra few minutes for the bite tray) If the bite is not in a tray I just mount it in one to put in the 3-axis arm. Scan, align, design restoration/model done.

Scenario 4: Upper + lower single tray impressions + bite tray ( or bite, just mount in a tray.) Scan, align, design restoration/model, done.

(Obviously with 3 & 4, you need some kind of bite. I have eventually talked most to send me a bite tray impression so I don’t have to mount it in a tray for scanning.)

Scenario 5: Implant impressions …these are the only ones I’m still pouring for now as there is no scan strategy yet for this. We need some sort of “reverse” scan marker to mount on the impression post + a library to match in the design software. I’m sure eventually someone will come up with something…

So far it’s working pretty good! I’m only pouring implant impressions....no remakes and no complaints on marginal fits. (Had some high bite complaints in the beginning from the usual suspects, lol) but have compensated in the design phase for them and all’s good.

All in all it is actually saving me time as I’m “dialing” it in. (Plus, I hate pouring models!!)

The models I design are simple, basically solid ( hollow) with no removable dies. A “crown holder” of sorts, lol… to check contacts and occlusion (like a solid pour)

As mentioned numerous times modeless would be an ultimate goal, but some guys just like to have something “traditional” to look at in their hand…

I’m looking at printers now, and have a test model that I have sent out to a bunch of printer companies. So, I’m ready to buy one of them fancy model pourin’ technician machines!! Just waiting for that “new” one to come out , Glenn


Larry

 

[Zak Johnson]

Exciting! Yeah my D700 Ive had since 2011, unbelievably reliable, incredible really

We're still using our D700 as well. The thing is a workhorse. We are scanning ~70% of our impressions and printing working models with Argen. It's a bit costly, but we don't need to waste time with printers or in the model room. Doctors have reported more reliable inter-proximal contacts than gypsum models, but those gypsum models came from an old unknown lab so I cannot vouch for their quality.

 

[DanM]

We're still using our D700 as well. The thing is a workhorse. We are scanning ~70% of our impressions and printing working models with Argen. It's a bit costly, but we don't need to waste time with printers or in the model room. Doctors have reported more reliable inter-proximal contacts than gypsum models, but those gypsum models came from an old unknown lab so I cannot vouch for their quality.

How's it work with triple trays that have the bite wrong or rough impressions that would be do-able with gypsum?

 

[Zak Johnson]

How's it work with triple trays that have the bite wrong or rough impressions that would be do-able with gypsum?

If the bite is off a bit we've used 3shape's optimize feature with quite some success. Most rough impressions contribute to that 30%.

 

[PCdental]

Just sharing my experience here….. For last couple of months I’ve been testing this workflow to see if it will work for me…I’m a one man lab so I do everything from models, design and finish. (I outsource the milling) I’m using a Medit scanner ( with a 3-axis arm.) With that and their scanning software, it’s excellent at scanning impressions. Then designing In Exocad and using the Model Creator module for the printed models. (I’m also outsourcing the models, for now…)

I had to figure out how to print models from most of scenarios given to me from each client.

Scenario 1: IOS scan, duh, Obviously a no brainer for printing a model

Scenario 2: Triple tray impression. The 3-axis arm will do upper + lower + bite in 6 minutes., then design restoration/model, done.

Scenario 3: Rigid tray impression (quad or full arch) and an opposing model + bite or bite impression tray. There is a scanning strategy to do all of this and align in the Medit software as well. ( just takes an extra few minutes for the bite tray) If the bite is not in a tray I just mount it in one to put in the 3-axis arm. Scan, align, design restoration/model done.

Scenario 4: Upper + lower single tray impressions + bite tray ( or bite, just mount in a tray.) Scan, align, design restoration/model, done.

(Obviously with 3 & 4, you need some kind of bite. I have eventually talked most to send me a bite tray impression so I don’t have to mount it in a tray for scanning.)

Scenario 5: Implant impressions …these are the only ones I’m still pouring for now as there is no scan strategy yet for this. We need some sort of “reverse” scan marker to mount on the impression post + a library to match in the design software. I’m sure eventually someone will come up with something…

So far it’s working pretty good! I’m only pouring implant impressions....no remakes and no complaints on marginal fits. (Had some high bite complaints in the beginning from the usual suspects, lol) but have compensated in the design phase for them and all’s good.

All in all it is actually saving me time as I’m “dialing” it in. (Plus, I hate pouring models!!)

The models I design are simple, basically solid ( hollow) with no removable dies. A “crown holder” of sorts, lol… to check contacts and occlusion (like a solid pour)

As mentioned numerous times modeless would be an ultimate goal, but some guys just like to have something “traditional” to look at in their hand…

I’m looking at printers now, and have a test model that I have sent out to a bunch of printer companies. So, I’m ready to buy one of them fancy model pourin’ technician machines!! Just waiting for that “new” one to come out , Glenn


Larry

Any updates? That is the same scenario I am looking into. My model department needs a total rehaul. I want a new scanner (currently using a Steinbichler) for impression scanning and a 3d printer. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, because I just know the best impression scanner and printer will come out six months after I make a purchase.

 

[LarryRDC]

I am still having good success...ended up purchasing a Nextdent 5100 printer.Keep in mind that you are still dealing with distortion, pulls and folds in some of the impressions....If you learn to "prepare" them for the scanner to "see" the important data, you can have good success. And also keep in mind you'll need an experienced tech to deal with this....There are times when you still have to deal with "fudging" margins and bites, just as you would with a stone model....You just have learn how to deal with it in reverse... learn to do with you can when preparing an impression and then the rest in your CAD design ( especially the bite! as long as the imp is decent the marginal fit is not the problem...it's always the bite!)) There is a learning curve with impression scanning ...Once you get it figured out, I think it works very well, at least for me...

 

[NDA]

I'll be sampling a E3 soon which has the same impression scanning tech as the D2000. You guys are happy (from ceramist to Dr) I'm assuming with how everything is working? Any troubleshooting learning curves you guys had to solve?

We like our 3Shape E3 for scanning but we find the ZirkonZahn Modellier program is better for design. The killer is the annual license renewal for the E3... it's $3k EACH YEAR! Ugh!

 

[Thomas H]

I am still having good success...ended up purchasing a Nextdent 5100 printer.Keep in mind that you are still dealing with distortion, pulls and folds in some of the impressions....If you learn to "prepare" them for the scanner to "see" the important data, you can have good success. And also keep in mind you'll need an experienced tech to deal with this....There are times when you still have to deal with "fudging" margins and bites, just as you would with a stone model....You just have learn how to deal with it in reverse... learn to do with you can when preparing an impression and then the rest in your CAD design ( especially the bite! as long as the imp is decent the marginal fit is not the problem...it's always the bite!)) There is a learning curve with impression scanning ...Once you get it figured out, I think it works very well, at least for me...

I am considering options for 3D printers and CAD/CAM; and weighing the pros & cons of digital vs. analog methods. I can understand that there would be distortion in digital impressions as well. If you don't fix them digitally or you miss something, can you fix models with the same tools you would use with stone models?

In other words: Is there a difference between what type of instruments, burrs, etc. can be used on print resins and lab stone?

Or, is my only option to make digital adjustments and reprint?

 

[Terry Whitty]

We use many 3D printers but the Asia MAX is the most versatile one we have and also gives us the best results for crown and bridge models . We use exocad model creator to make a solid model with ditched dies and seperate dies.We print them all at once. Not into hollow models , for my money a good rock solid model is king and easier to print. Will material very economic these days , why bother for a few cents savings. We try and print horizontally, I think it yields better results . I’m not really into printed models with removable dies , but if you get your parameters correct it works well for most sitiations .

Scanning impressions is challenging, but it comes down to how good the impression is, and the situation ... sometimes it’s just easier to pour it up IMO

 

[user name]

We use many 3D printers but the Asia MAX is the most versatile one we have and also gives us the best results for crown and bridge models . We use exocad model creator to make a solid model with ditched dies and seperate dies.We print them all at once. Not into hollow models , for my money a good rock solid model is king and easier to print. Will material very economic these days , why bother for a few cents savings. We try and print horizontally, I think it yields better results . I’m not really into printed models with removable dies , but if you get your parameters correct it works well for most sitiations .

Scanning impressions is challenging, but it comes down to how good the impression is, and the situation ... sometimes it’s just easier to pour it up IMO

Eek! Youre talking about manually modifying your models, then the plan is to rescan them to do the restorations? You just doubled (at least) your margin of error!

 

[Terry Whitty]

Manually modifying?

If you mean pouring up and scanning , yes.
But when materials and methods are treated with respect it can yield acceptable results.
And ...No I would never scan a printed model, pointless.

As technicians we have been compensating for errors in the system for years be it digital or conventional.

In our lab , most of our work comes in digital , but there are a few cases you have to get into the computer .. “ some how” as traditional methods have been used by the supplying clinician and sometime scanning the impression just does not cut it.

 

[Thomas H]

We use many 3D printers but the Asia MAX is the most versatile one we have and also gives us the best results for crown and bridge models . We use exocad model creator to make a solid model with ditched dies and seperate dies.We print them all at once. Not into hollow models , for my money a good rock solid model is king and easier to print. Will material very economic these days , why bother for a few cents savings. We try and print horizontally, I think it yields better results . I’m not really into printed models with removable dies , but if you get your parameters correct it works well for most sitiations .

Scanning impressions is challenging, but it comes down to how good the impression is, and the situation ... sometimes it’s just easier to pour it up IMO

I'm asking because I am considering starting to push more digital impressions from dentists and I want to scan impressions as a back-up or for duplicates.

The question is... When there are distorted impressions, is the only way to fix them is digitally through CAD or can you clean them up after they have been printed too?

If you can make alterations to models after they have been printed, what kind of tools do you have to you? Thanks.

 

[Terry Whitty]

Hi
I think the fantasy answer is we need to work with good impressions of course the reality is we sometimes don’t get these.

There are CAD programs you can use to tidy up impressions but it would depend what the issue is with the impression that will probably determine the outcome . I often use exocad’s tools for this if need be.

Of course you can manually alter a printed model but then you may have to scan it again which is not ideal:

I would love to see everyone with an intra oral scanner use retraction cord with all the cases that need it . Probably be a good start to getting better scans.

 

[RDA]

We have outsourced our implant model printing to Nobel Biocare and Argen. Nothing but problems, UGH! Lately, Nobel's models come in with the implant orientation off, by about a quarter of a "click" off. Argen's implant models come in with multiple issues. The abutment is seated completely, but in the mouth they are about 2mm out of occlusion. They have twice milled a Nobel RP abutment, when the order and scan body dictate a Nobel WP. This was after they had reassured us that they had corrected problems of the past with a new library of ELOS scan bodies to correlate with the ELOS intra oral scan body that was used.
Where do we turn to to have some quality correct printed implant models done?