Ortho Labs working for GPs

[Inman Labs]

FROM LAB DUDE:
pasted by Don to start a new thread....

Space Maintainers issue....

An orthodontist continues education for 2 to 3 years after dental school to better their understanding of orthodontic treatment.
Space Manintainers does full case work up, start to finish for general dentists to use while doing orthodontic treatment. These work ups are done by people who work at Space Maintainers, lab employees. While it is legal, it is less than second class.
It seems to me that if a given dentist were truly capable as a dentist, he would not need to do third rate orthodontics to make a living.
I have no problem with the general people that work at Space Maintainers,why would I??
My issue is with the owners of Space Manitainers painting a pretty picture for third rate treatment. And trying to distract from the real motive they have.
Of course, I do remark about things that are considered socially incorrect, or politically incorrect.
I have never been one to do such song and dance as " If you met the people and Space Maintainers, you would like them". B.S. Don.
I can be your best friend, or your worst enemy. I will always speak out and make as clear as possible the reality of what is happening, not a "spin" on reality.
Inman Labs, as itself would probably do just fine, to deal with Space Maintainers is unattractive to many who are truly competent.
In orthodontics, dealing with Space Maintainers only improves position for those who swim in that pool.
Again...the main issue is they provide service to less qualified dentists, those with no training in orthodontics, just for profit.

 

[Inman Labs]

Mike:

Do you only work for Orthodontists?

My bread and butter is Orthodontists and I will never bite the hand that feeds me but we do a lot of work for GPs. The Inman Aligner is used by almost as many GPs setting up their cosmetic cases as Orthos treating relapse.

Also there are many areas in the country where there are no Orthodontists, these rural areas the family dentist is the Pedo, GP, Endo, Perio, Prosto and Ortho. There are maybe 10,000 Orthodontists in the US and 100,000 GPs. In many areas the GP practicing ortho is the patients only choice.

I am not at all a money whore, this is not why we became affiliated with Space Maintainers. I know I can not change your feelings with my "spin" so I will not try.
I also want to be your friend and not your wost enemy but I have no clue how to do so.
I really try to go through life "collecting as few enemy's as possible" and I think my non-aggressive approach to business proves this. If I were on the show Donald Trump's show I am sure I would be the first one fired.

I love what I do, I just moved into my new lab (that might get hit by a Hurricane in the next 2 days) with a new laser welder and want to share so much about what we are doing and learning.

Mike just tell me to go away and I will leave this site with no hard feelings at all.
I might lurk...but I will if you wish not post again, I don't wish to anger you.

regards,
Don

 

[labdude]

I once in a while do work for GPs. Spring Aligner, a flipper once in a while. When I slowed down, GPs were the first to go. But, I never worked for that many to start with. They never were anything substancial to me.
The GPs practicing ortho is a tough subject, sometimes. My opinion on the matter is possibly it's o.k. if done in a rural setting, no ortho available from a praticing orthodontist.
Why it is allowed for A GP to practice in a large city, is strange. You have the AAO, PCSO etc that promote the extra training. Why a person goes to a GP in a large city seems to be because of an under educated public in the area of ortho treatment.
True, a GP can basicly move the teeth as well. Just in every instance I have heard about ( and there aren't that many) the GP treatment is less expensive, and so general public will go that way.
Affordable health care in most any area is a huge problem.
Being trained as an ortho or not....does at times seem to be a bit much. But, it is there, the training. With the idea that the care will be of a higher quality, due to that training.
I don't agree with your mode of operation with Space Maintainers. I have known of them for many years, and don't know why someone would tie their lab into them. Inman lab would function just fine without them I believe. I am, and always have been way to busy to look with any depth at why they survive. My focus is intense on my lab, and now with this site, when I have time. I wish I had more time for here, but, the lab is first.
None aggressive approach....looks like passive aggressive. You are not sitting on the fence. Neither am I, try as i might. I do both aggressive and non aggresive behavior.
I am from a time (60&70s) that causes me internal conflict simply because I have a busniess. I am "the man", the "establisment", and never was in my youth. I am living where I do in an effort to get away from the intensity, but, I like it to.
I was fine and happy, then Jay told me of this site Travis made. Right back into it I go.
You will always post here. Why would you not just because I asked you not to? It's not my site. It's becoming not even Travis site, slowly. Travis set this ite up for just this kind of hot edgy talk. His interest is in having a site that is not so candy @ss as Dental Town etc. Where things are deleted and this type of talk would not be allowed.
You are my competition, more so than any one else here. I will push, I hope you push back, as you do in a passive way already.
I would like to see someone form Great Lakes or maybe whats his name Allesee, AOA,
come on and take some punches,and share info as well.
It's all fun, it's all in learning.
Yes I would pee on you if you were on fire. I would expect the same from you.
You go away and your a ****ie. I suggest you stay, it wil be a better site for it.
Mike.

 

[labdude]

I did just get in a case for a GP today.
Space Maintainer for a youngster.
It's for a clinic in Eugene, I do all they send me free of charge, no postage as well.

 

[Inman Labs]

Mike:

I can tell this profession has rewarded you so it is good you give back.

Dude...you got to get your hands on a laser....I am blown away by what we are doing already. Think....almost no heat transfer so many options open up.

We are starring a bad storm in the face here in Florida, once it passes we can get back into the pissing match...until then take care Mike.

Don

 

[labdude]

GP work for last month. I went and took a look at the total....$174.38.
1.5% of July work. Comes to about 2 hours.

 

[labdude]

Thing that I don't understand, why align yourself with Space Maintainers after they crap on you.
Concept of a money whore is, well, conceptual. SM and GL have agreed to do things with Inman lab for profit. I have no problem there.
You can become nationwide without those guys. Employee all the good techs you can find. etc. Allesse is doing it. Maybe he's the money whore??? Conceptual again, where do you draw a line to call someone that.
You get a little weather and you whine.
The people who live in the north can't understand really why you guys don't move. It is general knowledge that most homes in the south have wheels. All you have to do is drive away.

 

[Inman Labs]

Got through the storm ( sorry I whined) and I am proud to say the entire staff showed up and we kicked ass today! 8 months a year it is paradise here that's why we live here in our double wides.

I almost dress everyday in shorts and pull overs, I can go anywhere I wish looking like Jimmy Buffet!

I guess a money whore would be making money doing something you know is only to make money...even if it is ethically or morally wrong?

I don't do this.

Don

 

[RetainerDesigner]

Space Manintainers does full case work up, start to finish for general dentists to use while doing orthodontic treatment.

What does this include besides retainers? or is it a treatment plan?

It is general knowledge that most homes in the south have wheels. All you have to do is drive away.

LOL, When I first opened my lab it was in ones of the rooms in my trailer house!

 

[labdude]

Hi Cade,
Full treatment plan.
I just kidding Don about the mobile and the whinning.
I'm not kidding about Space Maintainers. They are clearly not easy to defend. They are within the law, but, then it becomes a question of does the public know??
Some do, some don't.
I'll be posting a final response later when I have a little more time.
My lab is in a modifeid mobile now. Sits across the driveway from my house. We're about to re-side it. I paid rent for a place for my lab for many years. A friend, Wolfgang Laskowski, LL Dental, talked me into moving into this thing. That was about 1998 or 9. He works at home, in a shop on his property as well. I was skeptical for about 6 months. Then found out, it makes no difference. Plenty of room for employees if I wanted them etc.
Mike.

 

[Inman Labs]

My first on my own home was a 24ft travel trailer, lived in it a year.
Bought a 24 X 48 (small) double wide mobile home in my mid 20s.
I got to know many great people from "the park" but the realities of hurricanes and such resorted in me selling it 2 years later.

I do miss having a mortgage payment that was less than my current car payment.

I think having a lab in the house or next to it would be wonderful, the problem would be leaving it or not going back after hours.

I love Florida but as I said before...it is not where I want to retire...Mike has that down to perfection.....kudos Mike!

 

[RetainerDesigner]

I bought my 16x76 trailer a year after I graduated college with the plans of taking it to dental school with me. I ended up hauling it down to San Antonio for Dental Lab school. Stayed for 2 years hauled it back to Stephenville after graduation. Lived in it here for 2 years before we bought our house here in town. I still own that trailer house, I rent it out to a college student and her husband. I may do what Mike did if we ever get a house with some land. Haul it out on last time to the land and put the lab in it. Wonder if the wife would go for it?

 

[labdude]

Correct me of errors please.
It is my understanding, since 70s or so, that Space Maintainers, then located in Panorama City, were doing full case and treatmnet plans for GPs.
It is my understanding that they still do this, I haven't herad otherwise.
Here is a couple points for possible correction.
An Orthodontist goes through the same training as a dentist (school) then continues on for 2 to 3 more years in a n Orthodontic progam at a University.
A GP can practice orthodontics without this training,
however, an Orthodontist cannot practice general dentistry in his office if he so chooses.
Something is wrong with that picture if it is true, and it seems to be.

Other problem is one of disclosure of the practice of having a treatment plan put together by a lab, for a dentist to use in his office, to do ortohdontics.
A patient should be told, up front, I am not an Orthodontist, and the treatment you get will be layed out by another party. Or something close enough to let the patient know.
I would bet that in most cases, no disclosure is made.
Not a whole lot unlike the disclosure of a crown for off shore being placed without the patients knowledge.
That is my problem with Space Maintainers. And now the added joy of dealing with Steve Gross from their California facility.
I am glad that Don did not list this guy as one of his people he likes to follow.

 

[labdude]

Further...
Cade,
To give a talk on this, or to include it in a talk you give, would be awesome.
You don't want to touch that powder keg.....I jump up and down on it!!
Wish I was your age and knew then what I know now.
Still... it tempts me to come back out and raise hell with the issue. Maybe when I slow down a little more in 10 years. Might all be fixed by then. That would be nice.

 

[labdude]

Still further....
This problem is easily solved. Require some training in orthodontics, for everyone, after dental school. More training in this area is a good thing.
Get rid of the blurry line between an ortho and a gp doing ortho. Educate.
This would make Space Maintainer look a little better. Only a little if you ask me. They have liked it just the way it is, this kind of change might cost them a few bucks, and jobs.
Might be why Don mentions his employees to me, and that if I met them I would like them. Has nothing to do with this issue wether I like his employees or not.
If job loss happens because of a change in this issue, it would be no ones fault but the CEOs of the businesses that employee them. One would hope that a CEO would have a better grasp of what would be a good understanding of the CONCEPT of ethics.

 

[labdude]

And on....
It seems that most CEOs will align their concept of ethics with what is legal, and what is not.
If it's legal it's ethical. That is a load of crap.

 

[labdude]

And on it goes...
with all that in mind.
What about Cade?? He's a CDT!! Awesome thing to a point as I know he agrees. The extra training is good, as well as the ongoing education requirements. Problem is, there is to much money involved going not to the program, but into pockets. It's is legal, must be ethical.
I have had a lab for many years, never got a CDT.
Some guys I knew who had a CDT or not, generally said the same thing. Don't bother. I don't think this is right either.
Why should I be able to cruise along while Cade has to jump through ridiculous hoops??
There should be something for us all to meet certain requirments. The current system is not worth crap.
Just like the ortho issue...it's a freak'in mess and I don't know how to fix it.

 

[labdude]

Then educate the public at least...

yeah right. So much of the public doesn't want to be educated. Or to know what happens around them. Some don't even know what hemisphere they live in. CRAP!!
A lot of people are only concerned when they are confronted with....
"What??? You telling me my crown came from China and is giving me lead poisioning??? Where's a lawyer!!
"What??? Your not trained as an Orthondist like the Orthodontist up the street?? Well if I knew that I wouldn't need a lawyer!!

And so......while political correctness if practiced, and changes regularly, I won't have any part of political correctness. Same for Social correctness. All the crap that keeps us from seeing what is really in front of us.

 

[labdude]

So Don....
You started this thread for Space Maintainers. Called it a pissing contest once.
This is no pissing contest. It is to lay out ones ideas on where ones ethics are.
Space Maintainers is a great example of a money whore.
However....I won't use that description again, I find that type of name calling as unconstructive. Humous, of course!! But this ain't humor here, at the moment.
They just happen to be the ones that are a good example of ethics because it's legal.

I'm sorry for you that these guys have embarrassed you. May they fix that I hope.
Great Lakes, as far as your IPC and appliance patent. They just want the bucks. I think you see that clearly from the unveiling of the IPC at the AAO.
That IPC though, awesome idea put to market by you Don. Absoltuely awesome. Like inventing a new can opener.

 

[labdude]

Don,
I have no mortage for the past 5 years. Cars all paid for etc. Keeping the house financed for a tax write off isn't worht the risk. Putting the old house payments into savings is much better. There lies my retirement.
You know....If you have 1 million in growth stock mutual funds, you can draw of about 80k per year, and over 20 years, most likely your principle will stay at 1 million.