Ivoclar emax Press first attempt - Problems

Dosa Zsolt

Dosa Zsolt

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Hi,

This is my first attempt by pressing Ivoclar ingots, I've used one small Ingot on a 100 g small investment ring , invested with jp vest with the indicayed intructions.
I can tell it came out very bad, no idea where the problem was but the surface after remowing the investment material was very rough and margins were missing in most areas. The wax weight was about 0,6g.
Here are some things that can help your answers :

- I only used organic wax
- jp vest was prepared with 19 ml own liquid and 9 ml distiled water. I did a minute and half wacuum mixing, the investment was very smooth , no bubbles.
- furnace preheat 850 C then place the thing and hold for at least 45 min at 850 C
- I use an ivoclar press furcace ep 3000 , so by the time the burnout was complete, the furnace was set already to 100 g press program in ivoclar own program which starts from 700 C
- when I opened the furnace to put inside the investment, the temperature in the furnace dropped suddenly to 630C but when closed started quiclkly near from 680- 700 and up to 910 C under vacuum
- when my press was already done I became an 520 code error, finaly I looked the book and says it was Cds activated, which aborted further pressing
- the result you can my on my pics, what are you guys thinking ?
Both of the crowns are full anatomic with wallthickness around 0.8 - 1 mm

My thoughts are either the sudden temperature drop when the furnace head opens or the crack detection system activated. Any useful info is highly appriciated, thank you in advance.
 

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Contraluz

Contraluz

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As for JP vest: You seem to have too much liquid. Follow the guidance JP vest gives you. I think total liquid is 24ml

As for Ep3000: Use the program indicated for your ingot. The drop in Temp is normal. Preheat the Ep 3000 for about 20 min before pressing.

If you really used 28ml of total liquid, that will weaken your ring and have an influence on fitting and 'orange peel' look.
 
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You also have an enormous amount of reaction layer that must be removed with acid before seating and finishing.
 
Accutech

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I’m not familiar with jp vest but when I press I do the following.

I never use debubblizer. I find too many issues with it. Lots of orange peel texture after pressing.

After I invest, I wait until the ring is completely dry. I don’t work in a ‘rushed’ environment so I don’t have the need to fast press.
I place the invested ring into a cold furnace and raise temp to 400C, then 25 minute hold. Then raise to final temp, 850C and hold for another 45 minutes. Then place into pressing furnace.

it works great for me. RARELY have mispress issues or cracked rings. YMMV.
Thomas.
 
C

charles007

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Your pictures are not very clear so I can't give the best advice.
Since your new to pressing emax I would switch over to Ivoclars investment and follow all directions to a T. !!!! Haven't pressed in over 5 years but I definitely think your wax looks to thin at the margins. Feather edge margins must be waxed a little thicker, and sprue length and placement are just as critical !
I bought the ep5000 and never once had to repress any emax crowns in 5 years of pressings. My pressing success didn't come from luck, many others on DLN had the same results. Crack detection did go off 5 or so times in 5 years but my crowns were still ok. Great oven !
I sort of think your burnout technique played a part of your crowns, maybe debubblizer, anyway user error on your part. Short margins most likely comes from thin wax.
Going to assume your hot ring went straight into your ep3000 without delay.
I can't say this strong enough, follow every rule and directions in Ivoclar's emax manual and you will have great success !
fyi. several years later I switched over to Zublers investment, but not because of investment problems.

Edit.. important to calibrate your oven ! like some of my friends, I calibrated every 12 months, or more often depending on how much you press..
 
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Spruing is incorrect. Your margins are pointed towards the center of the ring. Turn them around!
Mass belongs in the heat center.
 
C

charles007

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Spruing is incorrect. Your margins are pointed towards the center of the ring. Turn them around!
Mass belongs in the heat center.
Bingo, overlooked that from to many years of not pressing.
Bob, within the first month of buying emax and ep500 I placed a molar to close to the outside wall and crack detection went off. Emax hit the wall and luckily I was able to grind away all the emax flash from around the margin, under high magnification of course, and years of trimming off alloy flash. lol
Back then Ivoclar required techs to take an emax class before buying emax materials....
The 2.5 day emax class in FLa was well worth the time to have 100% success. :)
 
ps2thtec

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Here’s some FYI from Ivo. Take it for what it’s worth.
The one rule I do follow is the 10mm rule, distance to outer wall of ring.

7CB00128-567F-4C23-9E71-092C768CB076.jpeg 0AF68018-B6F2-44E1-B66E-5CA783CC2F37.jpeg 14B9DE20-E3A1-485E-A44C-E0EAE1077E32.jpeg 95778AEA-A054-4662-AA43-BB5304B83FEB.png 14E05171-4B1E-4786-94FF-7B9EB267E99B.png
 
Contraluz

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Contraluz

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Back then Ivoclar required techs to take an emax class before buying emax materials....
The 2.5 day emax class in FLa was well worth the time to have 100% success. :)
Back in the "Empress' days, the course was 4 days :eek:!!! But you got a nice certificate at the end... The E.max introduction course, back in 2005 :oops: was 2 or 3 days, I cant remember.
 
CatamountRob

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You can do almost everything wrong and still get a good press most of the time. Check your furnace calibration, temperature matters. I’ve never taken an e.max course, I read the manual, it’s not rocket science. Do I need to find the video of the guy pressing emax with bricks??
 
ps2thtec

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Hi,

This is my first attempt by pressing Ivoclar ingots, I've used one small Ingot on a 100 g small investment ring , invested with jp vest with the indicayed intructions.
I can tell it came out very bad, no idea where the problem was but the surface after remowing the investment material was very rough and margins were missing in most areas. The wax weight was about 0,6g.
Here are some things that can help your answers :

- I only used organic wax
- jp vest was prepared with 19 ml own liquid and 9 ml distiled water. I did a minute and half wacuum mixing, the investment was very smooth , no bubbles.
- furnace preheat 850 C then place the thing and hold for at least 45 min at 850 C
- I use an ivoclar press furcace ep 3000 , so by the time the burnout was complete, the furnace was set already to 100 g press program in ivoclar own program which starts from 700 C
- when I opened the furnace to put inside the investment, the temperature in the furnace dropped suddenly to 630C but when closed started quiclkly near from 680- 700 and up to 910 C under vacuum
- when my press was already done I became an 520 code error, finaly I looked the book and says it was Cds activated, which aborted further pressing
- the result you can my on my pics, what are you guys thinking ?
Both of the crowns are full anatomic with wallthickness around 0.8 - 1 mm

My thoughts are either the sudden temperature drop when the furnace head opens or the crack detection system activated. Any useful info is highly appriciated, thank you in advance.


One question for Dosa, did you get this oven new or used? since you mentioned this is your first time pressing
Hoping someone didn’t sell you a dud.
 
ps2thtec

ps2thtec

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You can do almost everything wrong and still get a good press most of the time. Check your furnace calibration, temperature matters. I’ve never taken an e.max course, I read the manual, it’s not rocket science. Do I need to find the video of the guy pressing emax with bricks??

Just pressed these today. Probably looks wrong to some.
The material has to flow down and out, when thinking the flow in the ring.

06769AC3-AC1C-40A8-8CC3-05314ADF5AF0.jpeg
 
JMN

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Just pressed these today. Probably looks wrong to some.
The material has to flow down and out, when thinking the flow in the ring.

View attachment 35985
Sometimes it looks wrong because the other person doesn't know what they're doing :)

That's a hard lesson to learn.
 
millennium

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Also a minute and a half mixing time is too long. Should be a minute. Mixing speed maters too, Check investment rx, Should be around 320 rpm.
 
ps2thtec

ps2thtec

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Sometimes it looks wrong because the other person doesn't know what they're doing :)

That's a hard lesson to learn.

I don’t claim to know either 🤔, I just play a dental technician on dln,and just know what works for me.
It’s interesting even Ivo has changed their sprue rules. See pics in post8, and even the manual linked in post 9.Deal
(Here’s my subliminal) and use the “Super Ring”:Top:
 
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Contraluz

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Do I need to find the video of the guy pressing emax with bricks??
That brick pressing video is hilarious! But I guess it works... Fit, reaction layer and durability might not be their primary concern, though...:D
I read the manual, it’s not rocket science
But its worth reading it! Lots of little things and info in it...
 
Contraluz

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It’s interesting even Ivo has changed their sprue rules. See pics in post8, and even the manual linked in post 9.Deal
(Here’s my subliminal) and use the “Super Ring”:Top:
There has been changes over the years. I do position the objects with the margins pointing outside, for example, which is not shown in any manual, as far as I am aware. I also keep the sprue on the short side.
 
sndmn2

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You may want to re read the JP Vest instructions. I use it with good results. I only hand mix for about 15 seconds. And if pouring more than one ring cut your vacuum mixing time to 2 minutes. At least thats what works for me. I do however do a cold insert into the burnout oven. 20200609_231047.jpg
 
Dosa Zsolt

Dosa Zsolt

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As for JP vest: You seem to have too much liquid. Follow the guidance JP vest gives you. I think total liquid is 24ml

As for Ep3000: Use the program indicated for your ingot. The drop in Temp is normal. Preheat the Ep 3000 for about 20 min before pressing.

If you really used 28ml of total liquid, that will weaken your ring and have an influence on fitting and 'orange peel' look.

Sorry I post it wrong I did use 15 ml own liquid plus 9 ml water, this is in the instruction. So yes a total of 24 ml
 

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