is there a "mill all" milling machine

[Pieter]

Masam,
Ceramill Motion 2 is a wet/dry benchtop machine.The Orca mill from Delfin California is also a wet/dry benchtop machine and ZirkonZahn's M5 have a wet mill add-on with metal head plus airbrush for coloring Zirconia and lazer to engrave with. If you can hang on until March next year for the IDS I think there will be a number of machines that fit the bill.

 

[stumpf]

I am at the exact same position . Roland is one of the machines I am currently looking at , but my main workload is CoCr . I am currently outsourcing the most difficult cases and have them laser sintered , but as my lab is located in the island of Crete , shipping time takes longer , so there is a time issue . It would be great if I could mill those cases inhouse . I have some concerns about Turkish machines , but these guys really use quality materials . As for the after sales support , they are offering a contract of yearly maintenance . I don't have any more info but I am still researching . As I told you I am going to meet with these guys in 15 days , so any further info I have I will tell you . Everybody I have spoken and have a Yena machine , is really happy with it . I am also meeting them . I speak directly with the factory , not the Greek dealer . They can custom make a machine , just the way you like it . It sounds really interesting . I even found a guy in Greece that makes CNC machines , and have a dental model . 5 axis , 2.2 kw spindle , heidenhein control unit , price around 52.000 euros . It can be cheaper with a cheaper control unit . There are too many !!! I am researching from the previous IDS and haven't decided yet !!

I willl start with the Roland DWX-50.The price is very good.I like to focus to the FCZR.If i'll do my job successfuly,my next unit will be IMES I'm sure...

 

[Drizzt]

Yeah it's great! I do ZR, wax, pmma, and they all turn out great. In Chicago at LMT lab day I came across a company from Germany called ZR02 and all they manufacture are milling burs. Which they say can do 700 ZR units. Not sure Im going to take them that far but I've done over 150 on them without any chipping. The company we bought the DWX-50 from recommended we use the burs they sell at $85 a pop and can only get 20-30 units out of them. These new burs run me $125 but already have lasted 5 times my last burs saving me $800 on two different burs.

That sounds great !! I am considering this machine but have some doubts about its long term use . Will it be accurate after 2 years or more ? I can see compared with other machines that it is not that robust . This is the only concern I have . On the other hand , it is so cheap compared to the other machines , that ROI can be achieved easily .

 

[Drizzt]

You can mill CrCo out of stellite with the Roland and cast.Apparantly it works well. Then AmannGirrbach has an unsintered metal that you can mill named Neox. You need an Argon gas sintering furnace though. ZirkonZahn sell a microwave argon gas sintering furnace that could possibly do the job. It cuts down sintering time to about 80 min.

I think NEOX isn't released yet . If this really works it will be revolutionary .

 

[Drizzt]

Masam,
Ceramill Motion 2 is a wet/dry benchtop machine.The Orca mill from Delfin California is also a wet/dry benchtop machine and ZirkonZahn's M5 have a wet mill add-on with metal head plus airbrush for coloring Zirconia and lazer to engrave with. If you can hang on until March next year for the IDS I think there will be a number of machines that fit the bill.

Next Wednesday I will travel to Zirkonzahn's facilities to discuss about M5 . Ceramill Motion is too expensive , around 60.000 euros . I think it is overpriced . Delfin is located in the US or in Europe ?

 

[Drizzt]

I willl start with the Roland DWX-50.The price is very good.I like to focus to the FCZR.If i'll do my job successfuly,my next unit will be IMES I'm sure...

I will likely do the same . I hope we will survive the financial crisis of our country and have another better mill in the future . We are still growing as a business and hope to continue the same way .

 

[stumpf]

We tried laser sintered CrCo but price was too high. not to mention fits were bad. I heard milling CrCo was hard since the material is so hard, this true? Why mill though when you can cast it for next to nothing? Mill the design outta wax then cast it. Im sure NP metal doesn't cost much

Here in Hungary you can buy CrCo sintered copings about 10 euro/unit.The result is avarage.Milled CoCr is AWSOME!!!!the price is 25 euro(unit) and all of my dentists said this is the best.I recommend to try!

 

[Pieter]

The Roland is cheap but dont be fooled it is workhorse that goes and goes. Very reliable.Delfin is a US company located in California.ZirkonZahn also have a M3 upgraded to 5 axis that might be an option. About 4000 euro cheaper than the M5.The M5 however can be bought and the metal milling head with wet mill, airbrush and lazer features can be added later. That way your machine can grow with you. Unfortunately the Roland cant be upgraded.

 

[Drizzt]

The Roland is cheap but dont be fooled it is workhorse that goes and goes. Very reliable.Delfin is a US company located in California.ZirkonZahn also have a M3 upgraded to 5 axis that might be an option. About 4000 euro cheaper than the M5.The M5 however can be bought and the metal milling head with wet mill, airbrush and lazer features can be added later. That way your machine can grow with you. Unfortunately the Roland cant be upgraded.

Delfin looks nice , but I don't think it would be available in Europe . Zirkonzahn's M5 would be my choice . 4000 isn't that much to choose M3 instead of M5 . The only negative thing is that it is a closed system from what Zirkonzahn's people have told me . I would like to have the ability to choose what materials I use . Like Shane said earlier in this thread , he found some burs that have saved him 800$ so far .

 

[Pieter]

It is closed but not realy.Various zirconium brands make products that fit the M5.For example Nexxzr and Metoxit as far as I know. As for burs the chuck size is international. You can use any bur that fits and there are many. Should you want to go further you can have adaptor plates made to fit the M5 and use the material of your choice. You just need to consider the cam software.Dont deviate from thickness of milling blanks. The Zirkonzahn CAM software will calibrate the bur length and diameter seeing that the length and shaft diameter is the same, just be carefull of the milling head diameter .03 is the max.Select the same diameters as Zirkonzahn specifies, the brand then is not important.This you input into the cam software so there is no problem.What I like about ZirkonZahn - they are Technicians doing normal labwork, designing for Technicians - so they know what we need.

 

[Drizzt]

It is closed but not realy.Various zirconium brands make products that fit the M5.For example Nexxzr and Metoxit as far as I know. As for burs the chuck size is international. You can use any bur that fits and there are many. Should you want to go further you can have adaptor plates made to fit the M5 and use the material of your choice. You just need to consider the cam software.Dont deviate from thickness of milling blanks. The Zirkonzahn CAM software will calibrate the bur length and diameter seeing that the length and shaft diameter is the same, just be carefull of the milling head diameter .03 is the max.Select the same diameters as Zirkonzahn specifies, the brand then is not important.This you input into the cam software so there is no problem.What I like about ZirkonZahn - they are Technicians doing normal labwork, designing for Technicians - so they know what we need.

Didn't know that other brands are making materials for Zirkonzahn . This is what I love about this site!! Everyone is willing to share their knowledge . In 3 days I will be at their facilities and see how things are for myself . Everyone says that their machine is very accurate and the airbrush option seems really interesting

 

[YMS96]

ZirkonZahn also have a M3 upgraded to 5 axis that might be an option. About 4000 euro cheaper than the M5.The M5 however can be bought and the metal milling head with wet mill, airbrush and lazer features can be added later.

No wet mill yet, unfortunately.

 

[stumpf]

Delfin looks nice , but I don't think it would be available in Europe . Zirkonzahn's M5 would be my choice . 4000 isn't that much to choose M3 instead of M5 . The only negative thing is that it is a closed system from what Zirkonzahn's people have told me . I would like to have the ability to choose what materials I use . Like Shane said earlier in this thread , he found some burs that have saved him 800$ so far .

I felt the same 6 months ago.I realized how powerfull can be the zirkonzahn system.Then i started to talking with the hungarian distributor who was very kind and he informed me,if i want a powerfull system i have to pay a lot of money.....

Then i checked the Prettau....i saw i lot of perfect marketing picture,the reality was not good enough...Right now we can buy next generation ultra translucent discs easily....

I know a guy who are working in the zirkonzahn factory test laboratory so i know some unoffical news....

Forget airbrush,forget microsintering.....

I heard in the Zirkonzahn cad cam machines there are Schick motors...i didn't check but if its right then i don't want to pay a lot for some Shick motors...

About the open and close systems....

I prefer open system,because the world is always changing and i have to move with it....You can choose what you want,but with a closed system you have to do what the company want.Anyway thanks to the manual milling zirkonzahn unit there are a lot members of the zirkonzahn "family" so i'm sure this is the best closed system right now!

Regards

 

[Masan]

I will likely do the same . I hope we will survive the financial crisis of our country and have another better mill in the future . We are still growing as a business and hope to continue the same way .

will you please update us about the price of the new zirkonzahn once you meet with them

regards,

 

[Drizzt]

I felt the same 6 months ago.I realized how powerfull can be the zirkonzahn system.Then i started to talking with the hungarian distributor who was very kind and he informed me,if i want a powerfull system i have to pay a lot of money.....

Then i checked the Prettau....i saw i lot of perfect marketing picture,the reality was not good enough...Right now we can buy next generation ultra translucent discs easily....

I know a guy who are working in the zirkonzahn factory test laboratory so i know some unoffical news....

Forget airbrush,forget microsintering.....

I heard in the Zirkonzahn cad cam machines there are Schick motors...i didn't check but if its right then i don't want to pay a lot for some Shick motors...

About the open and close systems....

I prefer open system,because the world is always changing and i have to move with it....You can choose what you want,but with a closed system you have to do what the company want.Anyway thanks to the manual milling zirkonzahn unit there are a lot members of the zirkonzahn "family" so i'm sure this is the best closed system right now!

Regards

My first choise is yenadent D 43 . Nicely priced , can be upgraded to a wet mill , can be custom made , open system . I just want to see Zirkonzahn and know more about it for my own before I decide . The main reason I want to buy a milling machine is FCZ . As you said translucent zirconium can be purchased from several companies . I also like to have a choise and decide for myself , not having some company deciding instead of me . When I conclude my research , after seeing yena also I will keep you posted . Thanks .

Regrds ,

Dimitris

 

[Drizzt]

I just returned home after visiting Zirkonzahn . The factory at Gais is really cool . But I am a bit frustrated about the milling machines . I didn't know that the M5 machine doesn't have tool changer , and this is the reason they have 5 motors . They are going to offer a 16 tools changer , making the extra milling heads of no use . The metal milling spindle is not as great as it seems . They told me that if you mill metal all the time with it you will shortened the lifespan of the machine ! And that it is really slow . Also M5 is HUGE !!! you need a lot of space for this machine . Anyway , I didn't like it very much . I didn't like the fact that there are 5 milling heads ,2 of them standard , the other 3 have to pay handsomly for them . They looked cheap . M3 is interesting if you are looking for a low priced 5 axis machine . It costs 24.000 euros for 5 axis ,auto tool changer and the CAM software and PC with monitor . I also asked them if other brands of zirconium can be used with their machine and didn't get a clear answer . They promoted a lot the M5 . Everytime I aksed them about M3 they were telling me of the M5 . They are releasing in a month or so the M2 . It is the same as M3 but smaller . I originally wnet there with M5 in my mind . But after my visit I can't find any reason why I would choose M5 instead of the cheaper M3 .

 

[thewhitelab]

really interesting thanks for the update

 

[Pieter]

Hallo Drizzt
Interesting comments. When you buy the M5 with tool changer you do not have to take the extra milling heads. Personally I would take two, one as standby or to mill metal only with it.I agree that the M3 is a better more affordable option. The M 2 is a four-axis machine as far as I know. Pitty the Ceramill Motion 2 is so expensive apparantly 60 000 Euro without software.The Kavo Arctica is also a wet/dry mill. Someone on this forum mentioned it selling for something like $ 40 000? machine only?

 

[Drizzt]

Hi Pieter ,

M2 is upgradeable to 5 axis like M3 is . Moreover the auto tool capacity is 6 tools instead of 5 of M3 . It is 500 euros more expensive than M3 . But it is not released yet . If you want to mill metal then buy another machine . They told me it is very slow , that if you mill a lot of metal the machine's life is reduced . I wouldn't buy it to mill metal . I would keep outsourcing . The machine isn't built to mill metal . Anyway this is my opinion . In a previous post you said that metoxit produces blanks for Zirkonzahn . I can't find it in their website . I could find sagemax and from a company called US DENTAL DEPOT only . And of course a lot of chinese companies , but I wouldn't buy their products .

 

[Pieter]

I also found the ones you mentioned.Got confused looking up so many, so mroxit is probably not on the list