Is emax and 3G the same... Serious question

[Drkeller]

Dentist breaking ground on your forum but I need an answer.

I just discovered My current lab which I have been using since June 2010 has been using 3G every time I ordered Emax.

This is a problem on several levels but my biggest issue is:
1. The lab should have informed me if the don't use "Emax" but never did
2. Every invoice showed "Eris" listed as the restoration type
3. Im trusting when he says this but would there be a way to test the material if I cut a crown off?

If emax and 3G are identical and both are cementable then I have no issue other than being informed.

I just need to know from you guys. Are they the same or do I need to contact 40 patients for a recall.

Dr Keller

 

[Mark Jackson]

You lab is breaking the law. They are substituting an FDA 510k material without your permission. Counterfeitng, and material fraud is a serious problem and should be reported to the FDA and even law enforcement if you so wish.

Until people start being penalized for this, it will remain a problem and will get worse. FDA recalls, product failures, allergic reactions and other problems must be tracked and reported and if you ever did observe a problem you would be reporting problems with the wrong product. You asked for, and were charged for one product and given another. Because this is a controlled FDA material, it is a serious breach of trust and outright fraud.

I'm mad, can you tell?

OPC 3G is a lithium disilicate material like eMax, but much cheaper. In fact it was invented before eMax, and Ivoclar was sued when they introduced their material. Rather than settle the suit, Ivoclar took the more aggressive position and bought the whole ceramic part of the company (Pentron). The resin and clinical products were bought by Sybron-Kerr, the alloy business was bought by Argen.

OPC 3G and eMax are made in the same factory, by the same company, but the materials are NOT the same, not interchangable, and tightly controlled by the FDA.

If this was gold alloy, how would you respond?

You have the facts, the rest is up to you.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Mark there is a similar thread on DT (probably the same poster),might be a great time to chime in, I recently posted on it, follow my post

 

[Mark Jackson]

Thanks Rob. I bumped that old post I made with instructions for how to notify the FDA of counterfeiting. I pray this guy gets run up the pole for this.

 

[doug]

You know it really so much easier to let your docs know what you're using than to sneak something in the back door. The time for "acceptable generics" is gone in this industry. If you're going to use a product and promote it, use the REAL product.

 

[TheLabGuy]

I agree Doug, it isn't like the old days when everything was full cast gold or amalgam.....
Seriously, this lab tech committed fraud :nono:, it's a no-brainer, totally wrong. This Dentist isn't totally scott free either, is he Mark? A California Dentist should of been using you all along, right?:hail:

 

[charles007]

I've never even considered using 3G for obvious reasons, and I'm sure its a good product. Having never checked the spec on 3G, I don't know how it compares to emax in strength and any testing that may, or may not have been done. Emax has a lot of research and testing, and has held up very well in labs across the country.
Personally, I would be very pissed to learn that the lab you trusted used a generic product. Its almost like you ordered Lava and the lab used a generic zirconia. In his piss poor defence, he billed out as Eris, which is off the market, and it wasn't Eris that he used. You should have asked why he didn't use emax.
To me, its all about Trust.......... Any lab that would do this to his accounts could possibly do the same in other products he uses, such as Noble and High Noble alloys......It would be very easy to use noble and bill as HN.... Techs like myself can feel the weight in our hands, many doctors can't even feel the difference in NP and Noble ceramic alloys.
If your going to continue using this lab, I would have a heart to heart talk with a whip behind your back.

I doubt you will have any problems with these crowns if they had the proper thickness .
Good luck Dr. Keller

Charles

 

[Gdentallab]

Mark said the right words. Couldn't be explained better.
I wonder why this called tech, billed as Eris which is the Ceramic used for Empress 2 system?

 

[Mark Jackson]

I agree Doug, it isn't like the old days when everything was full cast gold or amalgam.....
Seriously, this lab tech committed fraud :nono:, it's a no-brainer, totally wrong. This Dentist isn't totally scott free either, is he Mark? A California Dentist should of been using you all along, right?:hail:

If a patient gets wind of this, and decides to go to another dentist to have these units replaced (whether they need it or not),Dr Keller will be on the hook for the entire thing. If some bottom feeder attorney gets wind of this and decides to tack on a ton of lost wages, pain and suffering, it could end up being a big payday for somebody.

If that attorney runs an ad in the local paper and gets a BUNCH of Dr Kellys patients, we could see a class action lawsuit.

Yes, this is bigger then just cheating some poor unknowing dentist out of a few bucks. It will happen sooner or later.

Mark my words.

 

[doug]

Mark, These days "Class Action suits" are the rage. This one patient will snow-ball into a huge suit that will take down a lot of people if it were to ever happened and a really smart attorney got ahold of it. "Smart" and "Attorney" in the same sentence, that's funny!

 

[charles007]

Maybe Travis should delete this thread........All the more reason this site should be private...........You can't even say what you really want to say sometimes............Did I say that

 

[dmonwaxa]

Maybe Travis should delete this thread........All the more reason this site should be private...........You can't even say what you really want to say sometimes............Did I say that

I with you on this one Charles, I was going to make that suggestion after Mark's initial response. I'm all for discussion, but I believe it should be private.

 

[dmonwaxa]

3G OPC
Composition/Information on Ingredients
A proprietary glass-ceramic comprising the following components:
Silicon Dioxide (SiO2) Potassium Oxide (K2O) Calcium Oxide (CaO)
Cerium Oxide (CeO2) Aluminum Oxide (Al2O3) Tantalum Oxide (Ta2O5)
Lithium Oxide (Li2O) Boron Oxide (B2O3) Phosphorous Oxide (P2O5)
Yttrium Oxide (Y2O3) Terbium Oxide (Tb4O7)



emax
Ceramic ingots made of: >57% SiO2, Li2O, K2O, P2O5, ZrO2, ZnO,
Al2O3, MgO, La2O3 and pigments

 

[AL1]

If he is being charged for an Eris crown, he is getting empress 2 with eris ceramic baked on it.
It is the predecessor to emax.

 

[Mark Jackson]

If he is being charged for an Eris crown, he is getting empress 2 with eris ceramic baked on it.
It is the predecessor to emax.

But he didn't. He got OPC3G and the doctor saw the pellets.

No way this post is getting deleted. This is exactly the stuff that happens every day. Counterfeiting and material substitution along with mixing and matching materials has been viral.

Don't try and sweep this under the rug.

 

[AL1]

If you read what is said, he wanted emax was charged for eris and got 3g.

 

[Mark Jackson]

If you read what is said, he wanted emax was charged for eris and got 3g.

Yep.

 

[dmonwaxa]

Dentist breaking ground on your forum but I need an answer.

I just discovered My current lab which I have been using since June 2010 has been using 3G every time I ordered Emax.

This is a problem on several levels but my biggest issue is:
1. The lab should have informed me if the don't use "Emax" but never did
2. Every invoice showed "Eris" listed as the restoration type
3. Im trusting when he says this but would there be a way to test the material if I cut a crown off?

If emax and 3G are identical and both are cementable then I have no issue other than being informed.

I just need to know from you guys. Are they the same or do I need to contact 40 patients for a recall.

Dr Keller

Dr. Keller, it's a shame you were put into this situation, not only from a legal standpoint but ethical one now breached with regards to the actions of this lab. Yes they should have informed you, no excuses. If in fact they deliberately misled you, then by all means you have every right to pursue what actions you think is necessary. This is an unfortunate situation we all have to deal with. I'm inclined to believe complacency and ignorance is more at play here rather than a breach of ethics with intent to mislead. Tell tale signs are; Ignorance: because both materials is LD based, the lab may have thought it was the same, manufactured in the same facility, by the same manufacturer mind you, and was a fine subtitution unaware of any compliance nightmare it would produce. Complacency: If you asked for emax received 3G and was billed for Eris, it appears they may not have that item listed on their computer and are in dire need of updating. I do believe there is a deep chasm probably like a black hole when it comes to some labs and their aptitude in general. Some believe everthing they're fed and to some extent from the manufacturers or reps: "sure its the same thing", " it's made in the same factory", or "its the newer better version, same thing but relabelled". This can be confusing and misleading also. I'm a technician of 29 yrs, have used both 3G and emax and have never mixed those materials or substituted any. My preference today is emax, because of the tranlucent qualities probably due to Mg as a component, similar to Spinell; and thats just a SWAG.


The bad,,,
you got more than you asked for
and didnt get what you asked for.

The good?
The 3G material was used in a way it was intended and not in an off label manner ,,,,hopefully
They're both LD
Both can be bonded or cemented.

Might just need a heart to heart and or a brand new lab.

 

[Darren S]

Should drop him like a bad habit. Recently had a doc contact me for PFM high noble. Claims he is paying his current lab $80.00 per unit. Had him show me an invoice. In turn I picked up one of the so called high noble PFMs with a magnet in his office. Thats always a funny one;-) Wish his lab guy was there so I could see the stupid look on his face.

Needless to say I have a new client. It's unfortunate that some people are that scrupulous. People like that lab owner cause more regulation that smaller labs like myself don't really have time for more paperwork than I care to do.

Sorry this happened to you Dr. Keller, I am only saying this so you may check your other restorations you recieve from them. He's apparently an unhonest ****. I've had docs drop me for one crown go wrong after over 700 cases that went right, with the correct materials being used.

Damn

P.S. Mark, relax a bit. You seem tense in all your posts. I'm glad to know someone who has read more laws than congress, so if I may need some advice I will contact you;-)