1st 21 unit case with Origin Intelligence

Scott W

Scott W

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Thanks Scott and you will really
Enjoy that scanner. Did you get the locked or unlocked version and what do you plan on using it for?

We are getting the locked version. Starting off we plan to use it for zirconia copings, some full countour zirconia, some PMMAs, and we would definitely like to try it out for implants / abutments.

Our lab consists of just 2 guys, so we are hoping this scanner will allow us to push through more volume and save us some time in the lab.
 
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YMS96

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No chance on getting a good wax printer for about 40 grand is there?

Solidscape, for around $30-ish. Better resolution than the 3d Systems but the material is more brittle and the print times are SLOWWWW
 
DMC

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I find printers for $40k often

I just installed a 2010 Demo model Projet for $40k last month...I know where more are.

New printer could be more trouble than a good used one. Just a gamble. They often have a few bugs that need sorting in the first few months of service.

My first printer cost me $15k for a used 2005 3D Systems InVision HR off eBay.(same as projet)
 
Alistar

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I don't know much about printers, but I've been in contact with a Objet rep. I guess they have desktop models that do dental stuff starting at $40k.

I checked out their website. Looks pretty sweet, but I don't have any experience or perspective to compare them too.

I'm thinking down the line doing printing and pressing e.Max and copings.

What is the cost of ownership on a printer compared to a mill? I'd like to know that.
 
Al.

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Jason it looks like it came out pretty good.

How much time do you think you have into it from scan to sprue vs hand waxing ?
 
NicelyMKV

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I would say I have about 2.5 hrs total time. I was fumbling around with the scan and design also, so I am sure over time I could have saved more time with the design phase. As far as waxing goes, i guess it depends on having a good pre op for quick placement and implementing a wax injection system etc. You personally are extremely fast but I think it can stil save time on average. We are two people less right now and moving the same amount of work. FCZ is a lot of the reason.
 
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charles007

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I would say I have about 2.5 hrs total time. I was fumbling around with the scan and design also, so I am sure over time I could have saved more time with the design phase. As far as waxing goes, i guess it depends on having a good pre op for quick placement and implementing a wax injection system etc. You personally are extremely fast but I think it can stil save time on average. We are two people less right now and moving the same amount of work. FCZ is a lot of the reason.

Jason, if you did this case with several months of experience under your belt with this scanner, how would you answer Al's question.. You have less than one month of using a scanner........do you see yourself moving the same amount of work with much less labor, lets say 3 -months from now ?
What do you see a scanner doing for you with-in the next 6 months financially and hours at the bench.
 
NicelyMKV

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Charles, I will sit down and give you a more detailed answer to that question but I can give you another labs experience I just talked to. The went from 22 people with a three million dollar yearly gross to 12 people and four million a year gross with nothing but the implementation of cad cam.......
 
TheLabGuy

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Who cares about the gross, it's all about the net. I'd like to be paying what I paid for gold a year ago.
 
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YMS96

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I don't know much about printers, but I've been in contact with a Objet rep. I guess they have desktop models that do dental stuff starting at $40k.

I checked out their website. Looks pretty sweet, but I don't have any experience or perspective to compare them too.

I'm thinking down the line doing printing and pressing e.Max and copings.

What is the cost of ownership on a printer compared to a mill? I'd like to know that.

Objet doesn't have a castable material so it's worthless for dental. If you want to make action figures then it's a cool printer.
 
Alistar

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Objet doesn't have a castable material so it's worthless for dental. If you want to make action figures then it's a cool printer.

I see, thanks for the clarification. Guess it's only good for model printing.
 
NicelyMKV

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True Rob lol. They said their profit margins were much higher in their present state as well. I was just stating how much work total they were able to move in general.
 
NicelyMKV

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Jason, if you did this case with several months of experience under your belt with this scanner, how would you answer Al's question.. You have less than one month of using a scanner........do you see yourself moving the same amount of work with much less labor, lets say 3 -months from now ?
What do you see a scanner doing for you with-in the next 6 months financially and hours at the bench.

Charles, I see myself moving quite a large amount of work with much less labor several months from now depending on work type. FCZ is now about 65% of my work. Utilizing CAD gives me much more control over the work with much less time involved. In the short time I used it, I was already picking up quite a bit of speed and with continued software updates it is only going to get faster and more accurate. With the new virtual articulation I will be able to have better control over a precisely designed functional occlusion in just a few mouse clicks. Emax CAD really surprised me. 12 minutes and your done. Say you design 4 an hour. Subtract a few for problems and you have 28. They come back and you crystalize them in 24 minutes. I actually stained mine a little especially the occlusion before crystallization. After that you just touch up the color and glaze. Metal frameworks work just as well. 12 to 15 minutes and you have a 3,6, 8 unit bridge completed. Only in NP for now though but still. If you like, do a press over PMMA while designing your coping or bridgework. All in the same 12 to 15 minutes. Heck, even if it takes 20 minutes you could have a 4 unit posterior NP framework with a full contour Press Over PMMA design.

I am jumping all over the place but it will take me awhile to soak in what all I can do and how best to utilize it. May even have a slightly higher manufacturing cost on some types over conventional fabrication methods but you may be able to move so much more with less people and actually go home;)

Good example was yesterday. I went in at 7:15 and had to see a patient at 7:30. Started working at 8:30 ish. Took an hour lunch and left at 4. In that time I finished, billed out and packed up 22 units. I also built 4 more Emax anterior restorations and unpacked and prepared about 15 units I had received from Diadem. All at a leisurely pace. All thanks to CAD :) These FCZ crowns are very quick to finish out once you get the hang of it and are looking better the more I do of them. We are now only waxing anterior Emax units and anything out of the ordinary like crowns under partials etc. I have reduced the workload by about 75% in my wax/metal dept and 65% in the ceramics dept. I intend to continue this trend and eventually utilize the technology for faster turn around times as well.

Probably did not fully answer your question but I will continue to post my future results and hopefully you can decipher what you need out of my A.D.D. moments;)
 
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NicelyMKV

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I will be sitting the bench for a few weeks I should add. I sent my locked unit back and am ordering an unlocked unit the 1st of the week;) I want access to wax printers, Diadem etc without the hassle of having the origin cad file converted($5) to STL.
 
Al.

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Really appreciate you taking the time to share your progress with cad cam. Helps to answer alot of the questions seeing it progress in real time and seeing how I could apply it.
 
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paulg100

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"Good example was yesterday. I went in at 7:15 and had to see a patient at 7:30. Started working at 8:30 ish. Took an hour lunch and left at 4. In that time I finished, billed out and packed up 22 units. I also built 4 more Emax anterior restorations and unpacked and prepared about 15 units I had received from Diadem. All at a leisurely pace. All thanks to CAD These FCZ crowns are very quick to finish out once you get the hang of it and are looking better the more I do of them. We are now only waxing anterior Emax units and anything out of the ordinary like crowns under partials etc. I have reduced the workload by about 75% in my wax/metal dept and 65% in the ceramics dept. I intend to continue this trend and eventually utilize the technology for faster turn around times as well."

My god i must be doing somthing wrong! oh yeah..its called using a Sirona craplab. (sorry riley, i had to use your name for it but it made me laugh, its so true :) )
 
TheLabGuy

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Really appreciate you taking the time to share your progress with cad cam. Helps to answer alot of the questions seeing it progress in real time and seeing how I could apply it.

I agree, there is a ton of small sized labs looking at what a scanner can really do for them. Honestly, looking back where I am today if I would of done anything different, I would of flown out to B&D and taken a look at 3Shape and Origin's scanner and came back with Origins Intelligence for a 30 day trial. Then after 30 days I think you would be able to answer to yourself what type of scanner/software fits into your business model currently and into the future, because at the end of the day that's what you want for your money. However, I'm pleased with Origins support and the stuff I'm getting back, although they have room to improve as so do I. I'm still only doing a handful of FC BruxZir's but maybe in time that will change. Looking forward to moving into the titanium side of the house though (custom abutments and PFM's).
 
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charles007

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Sironia Craplab... good one, and sorry for you:) And to think I almost bought one UNTIL I did a little research...
 
TheLabGuy

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True Rob lol. They said their profit margins were much higher in their present state as well. I was just stating how much work total they were able to move in general.

I hear ya, I've noticed once you get past the learning curve and implementation of the scanner you can really produce some work. I wouldn't say it's increased 25% of profit and labor reduction, but I'd say it's over 10% and a noticeable change. I still do a ton of traditional PFM's so maybe the difference is right there but I don't wax any full contour anymore unless it's a diagnostic wax-up. So that really free's up a lot of time and you only have to make very slight adjustments when they come back in the PMMA state. Noticeable when it comes to monolithic E.max for me, also, all large bridges as well. That PMMA is very stable, no chances of rocking. Now if I can get my accounts to do more Zirconia/BruxZir we will probably see that difference go to 20%.
 
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paulg100

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can i just confirm, the PMMA is for burnt out as well as temps etc right?

"I sent my locked unit back and am ordering an unlocked unit the 1st of the week"

oh and good call, i would never buy into a locked system again. Allthough tbh, is there really such a thing anymore, anything can be converted to anything now, so thay may aswell all just change to STL and have done with it.

My bet is it wont be to long before this happens.

As for people like Straumann keeping there milling centers locked to their scanners, i dont beleive this will last much longer either. Any one with a head for business can see thats a REALLY dumb idea when there are thousands of labs out there ready to use your facilities with open scanners.
 
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