Roland DWX-30 vs. Wieland Mini.

[Glenn Kennedy]

Zahn in Chicago gave the quote for the DWX50 at $49,000 with CAm software and i think $2,000 in zirconia pucks. Where are they selling them for under $30k?

The MSRP for the DWX-50 is $29,995. That price does not include CAM software. Resellers bundle CAM software which typically goes for about 8K. Most are bundling either DentMill or SUM3D. If you already have CAM then you don't need to buy it again.

Roland DGA does not sell direct so you will need to contact a reseller for an actual quote.

Since this is an international forum all of these prices are for the US. You can contact me for a US reseller or visit the Roland DGA website and use the international dealer locator to find a Roland distributor outside the US.
http://www.rolanddga.com

 

[[email protected]]

It means they can up sell you into a larger mill (LOL)! I know I can go to the corner store in a Ford Focus but a Begatti Vayron is more fun!

No, from what I understand is that the machine has the "capability" to go through a
510k process due to its tight milling tolerance (especially if your milling certain types of medical devices like bars). Now being capable is one thing, but will a lab be willing to shell out the $$$$$$$ to actually do it is another (the FDA process would require so much that the nickle anyone would save would not be worth it. Milling bars and abutments is something left to those who have the ability and systems in place to support it. I just like to over engineer things.

copied this from the manufacture just to make sure I had the language correct.

"High-dynamics linear motor drives in X, Y and Z axes, including Heidenhain linear encoder for precise positioning with a resolution of 0.0005 mm."

 

[[email protected]]

Also, I am fairly new to posting on this site so go easy. The information on here is very helpful and really enjoy hearing all different opinions on our industry.

 

[BobCDT]

Looks like a real solid machine. I have been on the fence as well (meaning go big or go Roland Dwx-50). I have my eyes set on a imes-icore 550i or 750i. The 750i has linear motors vs the servo motors. The 750i has the Heidenhain as well. This mill is also FDA certifiable with an accuracy of .0005mm (per manufacture). So here is the $145,000.00 question, how much?? if you dont mind sharing. Thanks

The first one is about $40K for the mill CAM CPU and some materials. We have really come to a conclusion that milling green state zirconia with very tight tolerance (microscope 20X) does not take a large frame industrial mill. We are adding Roland's into our workflow for short $$$$. additional Roland mills price out for less$$$.

 

[STJDENT]

It has max cutting speed of 1000mm/minute, no? Max Z feed is 1800. But that is for Rapids only.

Fine, it is a great mill. Everyone go buy a couple right now.

I'll stick with German and Industrial grade stuff. Nine months is very impressive for your mill. I gotta give ya that!

I am seriously looking at ... Milling machines>PFM 24 mediMill:RIMACON Maschinenbau GmbH

These guys made my other 3M mills, so....why not fly them over to my house and set me up straight with the real thing? .0015mm accuracy according to VDI/DGQ 3441 testing. (1 and 1/2 micron. Germans do not play games when it comes to measuring things.)

World renowned Heidenhain iTNC 530 Controller for super fast HSC. I don't even know if a Roland has a control computer?

I would like to have some stuff that may be FDA approved for fun things. It requires high accuracy.

What is the price of a primacon 24 mediMill? It´s very similar to DMG

 

[Drizzt]

What is the price of a primacon 24 mediMill? It´s very similar to DMG

180.000 euros for 4 axis mill and 230.000 euros for 5 axis mill . As you said it is very similar to DMG , even at its price !

 

[STJDENT]

Drizzt.
Hehehe you right.

 

[Drizzt]

Oh yeah !!! Too much $$$$$$ for me !!! If you don't want to mill metal they have another mill , the same as the Lava mill , for 118.000 euros .

 

[BobCDT]

Hi Guys,
Let's look at this from a streight forward Buisness perspective. First we need to evaluate the laboratory market. Taking a close look, I see zirconia rapidly becoming the material of choice. In addition, I know there are many manufacturers currently working on more esthetics zirconia blocks. That said, let's look at zirconia mills first.

So the Primacon zirconia mill (which I know nothing about but I am sure it's probably a great mill) will cost you about $220 per day. I am basing this on a 60 month loan. This probably does not include the cost of CAM and training. This mill, like most others provides one spindle and probably has a capacity of about 60-70 units in a 24 hour day? So, let's say you build up your zirconia volume to 10 units per day. This purchase has a real cost of about $22 per unit. Keep in mind this does not include materials, tooling, sintering electricity or labor and repayment parts. Expensive mills have expensive parts that over time wear and need replacement. A few years ago I looked at the DMG 20 for milling e.max. The spindle replacement cost was about $20K.

Now let's compare the purchase with a Roland DWX50 5 axis mill. This mill I am familiar with as we have one. Right out of the crate we were getting great fitting products. In addition you can see from the photos I posted we are also getting good anatomical form. The mill and CAM and training ran us about $40K. Just like the Primacon it has one spindle. Let's say the capacity may be slightly less. Let's say 50 units a day (I really think its actually more). So moving forward to the ROI the Roland cost. The $40K investment runs about $38 per day. So the same 10 units milled in a Roland cost $3.80 per unit for mill cost only.

If we bump up production to 30 units a day the Prinacon will run us $7.33 a unit while the Roland will be only $1.26. Again looking at our market things have become very competitive. Cost controll is important. In addition, I know German engineering is great, some of the best along with the Swiss made mills. This stuff is absolutely built to be running for 15-20 years. Roland has been around for a long time but for $40K I would expect that we may not get 15-20 years of service out of it (sorry Roland). But again, looking at our industry, who can say how long we will be milling.

Last thought, if you are looking to mill metal I am all in for expensive industrial German built mills. However, Pre sintered zirconia is very soft and mills very easily.

Sorry to be so long winded, but this is really an easy business decision.
Bob

 

[DMC]

Bob you already own a Primacon mill, or maybe Two already?

What do you mean you know nothing about it? (I actually believe you.)

Why did you buy it then? You have One of everything?

You are a Lava milling Center, no? All Lava mills are Primacons.

Roland is at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Have you ever layed your hand on a mill to feel the forces being generated by the movements? The Roland is a flimsy Cardboard box with little baby motors and fooseball-table rails. Like a paper printer, or a vinal cutter. Nothing like a real CNC mill at all@!.

 

[DMC]

I have a Nine year old Primacon....running 24/7 still!

Another years old, and another Four years old.

They kick ass! That's my experience with them.

But, what do I know?

 

[BobCDT]

Hey Scott,
Yes I do have Lava. Had no idea that the mill was made by Primacon. me.
I bought Lava because dentistry was asking for it. I outsourced it for a few months and built up more than enough business to pay for it, so I bought it.
I must say, there is no way That I can get the high quality anatomical form off my Lava mill that I get off my Roland. In addition, marginal integrity and fit are just as good. See pics I posted in this thread. If you can reproduce the anatomy i psted in a lava mill I would love to see it. Why don't you post some picks.
Scott, I have never "put my hands on a mill to feel the forces generated" I am really all about the end product produced. The end result is what turns me on.
Different strokes for different folks.
Hope all is well,
Bob

 

[DMC]

One day you may understand enough to discuss this topic.

Not today, obviously.

I can control you Primacon to run circles around your Roland with any tool you want.

Faster, and much more accurate.

 

[BobCDT]

Bob.


Bob oh Bobby boy.....


Oh my godness you make me laugh!


That's a great joke for a Friday morn!


I will bet my lab that I can make your Primacon run circles around that Roland.

Anytime, anyday.

Speed, or accuracy, or both at once.

Name the tool diameter you want to see. We have full control of a far superior CNC mill.

Hey Scott,
We are all really busy here.
Please post some picks to support your claims.
Bob

 

[BobCDT]

One day you may understand enough to discuss this topic.

Not today, obviously.

I can control you Primacon to run circles around your Roland with any tool you want.

Faster, and much more accurate.

In addition, I am getting impeccable fits under 20x mag. If indeed your fits are better we will not be able to see it. You must be after something that goes way beyond what is clinically a great fit and marginal integrity. If you are working to fabricate crowns that have fits error of less than 5 microns more power to you.
I'll post a pick for marginal fit today.
Bob

 

[DMC]

Your spindle has more than 5uM runout Bob.

It is a POS on the Roland. You tool is + ?? mm diameter of what you actually think it is.

This, and many other things acn be measured and verified. No guessing at all.

The Primacon has, I believe, Heidenhein 1uM Glass scales for mechanical positioning. The Roland probably has a 10uM or more borrowed from printer technology. I could go on and on...

It is impossible to have the Roland cut anywhere near as accurate as a $150k German 1ton mill. This is a really stupid conversation we are having.

 

[paulg100]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/hawkman91/DLN/bobspic2.jpg

MY GOD!

When you compare this to what comes off my Craplab MCXL, the MCXL stuff is just laughable

And theres still people visit these forums that are considering buying an Inlab system... duh McFly! :crazy:

 

[Mike2]

OK Scott, I had heard you were in Chi-town, I wish I could have spoke with you as you seem to be very knowledgeable. I did speak on the phone a year ago with you about doing some milling from nobel scans. I never did hear back?? Anyhow, I spoke with Charley from Fargo at the Jensen event, he did not have many good things to say about all the systems. The package that Jensen was offering was intriguing, but you had to use a Jensen/Lava milling center. They were throwing around cost of 18-19$ a UNIT?? Anyhow, what is the real deal with Lava 7.0 and is 13,000$ a good price? Is the software easy to use? I appreciate your opinion,thanks in advance! Keep it simple as I am.

 

[YMS96]

Your spindle has more than 5uM runout Bob.

It is a POS on the Roland. You tool is + ?? mm diameter of what you actually think it is.

This, and many other things acn be measured and verified. No guessing at all.

The Primacon has, I believe, Heidenhein 1uM Glass scales for mechanical positioning. The Roland probably has a 10uM or more borrowed from printer technology. I could go on and on...

It is impossible to have the Roland cut anywhere near as accurate as a $150k German 1ton mill. This is a really stupid conversation we are having.

I'm wondering if there's a single person on here, besides ***, that has anything bad to say about Rolands newer mills (not counting the 10 or 30) for dental...

 

[BobCDT]

Hi All,
As discussed, here is a real close up shot of a full contour zirconia crown margin milled on our Roland. I just can't imagine anything better. If it were, it would likely not be noticeable until you get over 100X mag.
Bob