prices to public

[kcdt]

yup,I don't give a s**t about the patient really, I'm jus' a simple slave merchant.

That type of response is the main reason why no one will ever take you seriously. If I were a clinician, i wouldn't let you in the building, much less near one of my patients.
Grow up.

 

[XxJamesAxX]

Uhm..... as someone who's worked in house before, and still consults chairside, I can point to instances where the patient questioned TO MY FACE the Dr's abilities to perform the treatment BECAUSE I was there..... blanket generalizations are an easy way to step in the proverbial beartrap.

Boy I bet that was one of those pleasant patients we all love... popcorn

I've never had a patient even remotely question why I was there in a negative way. Of course I'm still wet behind the ears with just under 10 yrs in this field. Though I feel that any Dr. I work for would have easily handled that situation with simply stating that you was there because you are the tech. that actually manufactures the resto and that meeting with the patient helps you create a better product. Of course explained in more detail...

I will also add that I've dropped clients for more then just not paying there bill. Call it what you will but I only work for Dr's that agree with my way of thinking, if there looking for a lab they can look down there nose at and treat as if there inferior to them they can send there work to you guys...

 

[XxJamesAxX]

Tell me, please, James, or anyone, if you would be so kind, how you might reassure a Dr who is afraid a p/t may be too outspoken to let you meet them...?

Honestly I've never had a Dr. even question this. Atleast not that I know of. I personally lay it all on the table when I decide to take on a clients work.

I let them know right up front that the ultimate goal of mine is to do the best for the pt. I let'em know I like alot of communication mainly via email because its convient for everyone. I tell them I like to do things right the first time and not that I'm always right but imo the closer the lab & dr. work together the better it is for the patient. Of course I tell'em alot because I like to talk to much. Its usually the cause for most of my long hours.

If I feel like a dr. doesn't value my opinion then there not a client I want to work for. Some will call me crazy I'm sure but thats just the way I was raised and its got me this far. I dont care if you have a higher degree, doesn't mean I dont know a thing or two you dont and if you cant get past that then send your work somewhere else.

I offer my services chairside. Let them know that anything I can do to make things go as smoothly as possible for them but also the PT is my goal.

They always seem to like my willingness to be chairside. I dont know maybe its just me....

 

[Tom Moore]

I assume you charge them for leaving the bench and losing production time. How do you bill that?

 

[XxJamesAxX]

I assume you charge them for leaving the bench and losing production time. How do you bill that?

Actually I do not charge for my services chairside. Its part of the benefit they get when they choose to do work with me.

For example if we dont get a set up right on the 2nd try in I offer on the 3rd to be there chairside to ensure no further visits are needed.

Call it lost money due to lost production if you want, I call it an investment.

 

[XxJamesAxX]

What this industry needs is lab owners that run the lab like a business.

What this industry needs is the samething the USA needs as a whole. Honest hard working people making a living doing there job the best way they know possible.

Not business men/women looking to fill there pockets with as much cash as possible by any means necessary. This goes for Labs & Dr's.

Of course I'm getting off on a total different topic here then our previous discussion but may I ask what you think the percentage is of labs & Dr's that are willing to cut corners and mislead patients in order to put a little extra cash in there pocket. My guess is its getting higher all the time...

I'm sure some will say thats just business but if it is thats fine with me I'll stick to just being a lab owner...

Not picking on you Tom just discussing. I love a good friendly discussion....

 

[marvel]

Chairside Visits Y or N?

... I personally lay it all on the table when I decide to take on a clients work.

I let them know right up front that the ultimate goal of mine is to do the best for the pt. I let'em know I like alot of communication...I like to do things right the first time and not that I'm always right but imo the closer the lab & dr. work together the better it is for the patient. ... I offer my services chairside...

They always seem to like my willingness to be chairside. I dont know maybe its just me....

Thanks, everyone, for all the answers. James, you make clear to the Dr your full support. Tom, a willingness to be chairside is a business cost, of course.

Dr said, "The final sculpting is always in the p/t's mouth, a restoration looks different on a p/t," and casually dropped that his lab guy doesn't want him adjusting these copings. Reason given is as they are zirconia and brittle.

So I said, "Maybe the lab guy should be here with you for the tryins," and Dr nearly fainted. "Oh no no no no no!" he said, raising the drill and steadying himself on the arm of the dental chair.

Okay. I am more interested in teeth than your avg p/t. I once took a 10-wk dental asst crash course plus state exams for funzies.

And Ive learned to be outspoken.

If he fears that sooner or later I'll wanna talk with the master ceramist he is spot on; mine is a full-mouth rehab, 28 units, 5 zirconia implants.

I have ENORMOUS respect for the artistry and decision making involved in creating a gorgeous, natural looking tooth. At least part of me is a wannabe ceramist and I know enough to ask an intelligent Q or two.

And I know time is money. We drive 9 hours each way to see this pros; each appt is a 2-day trip. My time is valuable, too, at least to me.

Dr and I are tight now but we've tussled. He is helping my mouth heal rather than set the deficiencies in stone with restorative coverups.

It's working great and takes longer this way; I'll be in temps 6-8 months. So there is time for me and Dr to tussle on calling in his lab guy.

Can't tell you how glad I am to know some ceramists do make chairside visits.

 

[Tom Moore]

Sometimes it seems my competition thinks if they lose a dollar a unit they can make it with volume.

I did the same thing when I ran my small lab for thirty years and charged a high price with all that service built in. It just never seemed to work out on my side of the financial equation.

I can't afford to deal with and do not want to deal with dentists that can't do the chair-side part without me.

I do chocolate, vanilla and strawberry. You guys can do the Rocky Road but make sure you charge for the extra nuts.

 

[araucaria]

Actually I do not charge for my services chairside. Its part of the benefit they get when they choose to do work with me.

For example if we dont get a set up right on the 2nd try in I offer on the 3rd to be there chairside to ensure no further visits are needed.

Call it lost money due to lost production if you want, I call it an investment.

3 try-ins and free visits to the clinic is not an investment. However you look at the situation you're sacrificing your profits to support people you shouldn't be doing business with - I'm sure the doc is really impressed with the service, but It's not a good way to operate in business. You'll be the guy slaving away through the nights and weekends while the doc's on the beach in honolulu.

 

[Tom Moore]

What this industry needs is the samething the USA needs as a whole. Honest hard working people making a living doing there job the best way they know possible.

Not business men/women looking to fill there pockets with as much cash as possible by any means necessary. This goes for Labs & Dr's.

Of course I'm getting off on a total different topic here then our previous discussion but may I ask what you think the percentage is of labs & Dr's that are willing to cut corners and mislead patients in order to put a little extra cash in there pocket. My guess is its getting higher all the time...

I'm sure some will say thats just business but if it is thats fine with me I'll stick to just being a lab owner...

Not picking on you Tom just discussing. I love a good friendly discussion....

No offense taken.

I deliver a lot of value for the dollars I charge and know every one just can't afford the best treatment available. In most cases they know they are in the back of the plane and they get peanuts and a small plastic cup of coke but get to their destination.

Those that don't want to service this part of dentistry is understandable because you must be vigilant or you are broke. I have seen some on the high end of this industry in the last few years that despite their prowess at what they do closed up and moved on. The profit is what allows us to do this and keep doing not our wish to be altruistic toward the patient. I think balance is what makes for a successful life.

 

[kcdt]

Boy I bet that was one of those pleasant patients we all love... popcorn

I've never had a patient even remotely question why I was there in a negative way. Of course I'm still wet behind the ears with just under 10 yrs in this field. Though I feel that any Dr. I work for would have easily handled that situation with simply stating that you was there because you are the tech. that actually manufactures the resto and that meeting with the patient helps you create a better product. Of course explained in more detail...

I will also add that I've dropped clients for more then just not paying there bill. Call it what you will but I only work for Dr's that agree with my way of thinking, if there looking for a lab they can look down there nose at and treat as if there inferior to them they can send there work to you guys...

Well, first of all this was removable, which can bring a number of maladaptive type out of the woodwork.
This one was an odd one, to be sure, but my point was to demonstrate that not all patients interpret things positively, and anytime you engage directly in the dr/patient interaction there's the potential for pitfalls you hadn't thought of.
What I'm hearing is way too many folks without a license to practice or malpractice insurance acting like skirting the line is acceptable.
Tom has some real clarity in this regard:
The dr is our customer, and he deems whether or not our work is suitable for his treatment protocol. The patient is the dr's, not ours, and our guidance and expertise is utilized to further the goals of the treatment the clinic has established. Period.

 

[XxJamesAxX]

3 try-ins and free visits to the clinic is not an investment. However you look at the situation you're sacrificing your profits to support people you shouldn't be doing business with - I'm sure the doc is really impressed with the service, but It's not a good way to operate in business. You'll be the guy slaving away through the nights and weekends while the doc's on the beach in honolulu.

Thats where me and you look at it different and I'm sure we can go back and forth on this all day long. IMO though it is a investment. Its a investment in my relationship with that dr. and my business. Its a service that I offer that sets me apart from a lab that is much cheaper but hundreds of miles away.

As for the statement that I shouldn't being doing business with them are you saying this because they need chairside assistance? If so I didn't say they need it, I said I offer it to help in the situation to keep from there being anymore visits needed from the Pt. Or did you mean because of the need for a 3rd try in? If so all I can say is its not often but it does happen and if it does I'm here to help them thru it, I dont point fingers if they do something wrong and all I ask in return is for them to not point fingers when I do something wrong. Yes it happens....

You can call it "not a good way to operate in business" if you want but my family is doing well, my employees do well, I sleep very well, and I'm proud and eager to get up and do my job everyday. For me it works, and I hope your way works just aswell for you.

 

[XxJamesAxX]

No offense taken.

I deliver a lot of value for the dollars I charge and know every one just can't afford the best treatment available. In most cases they know they are in the back of the plane and they get peanuts and a small plastic cup of coke but get to their destination.

The profit is what allows us to do this and keep doing not our wish to be altruistic toward the patient. I think balance is what makes for a successful life.

Tom, from the above I agree 100%. My comments was not towards any lab or dr. that works on the economy end of our industry. I do my fair share everyday aswell. Often the most rewarding.

My comments was directed towards labs & dr's that cut corners in order to make what I guess you would call extra profit at the expense of the patient and there ignorance in this area.

We have a dr. in our area that I do not work for that treats patients like a ATM machine. He absolutely drains them for all he can then when a problem comes up just says sorry I did all I can. I here complaints from other Dr's in the area on this guy all the time and he's been in business for over 20yrs and appears to be doing very well. Atleast on money.

 

[araucaria]

Thats where me and you look at it different and I'm sure we can go back and forth on this all day long. IMO though it is a investment. Its a investment in my relationship with that dr. and my business. Its a service that I offer that sets me apart from a lab that is much cheaper but hundreds of miles away.

As for the statement that I shouldn't being doing business with them are you saying this because they need chairside assistance? If so I didn't say they need it, I said I offer it to help in the situation to keep from there being anymore visits needed from the Pt. Or did you mean because of the need for a 3rd try in?
because of the financial burden placed on your business, this can cost dearly - the damage isn't always obvious to see
If so all I can say is its not often but it does happen and if it does I'm here to help them thru it, I dont point fingers if they do something wrong and all I ask in return is for them to not point fingers when I do something wrong. Yes it happens....
I understand completely - been there, got the T-shirt....

You can call it "not a good way to operate in business" if you want but my family is doing well, my employees do well, I sleep very well, and I'm proud and eager to get up and do my job everyday. For me it works, and I hope your way works just aswell for you.

What you're doing is honorable and decent, helping and offering guidance is good. But there should be a limit. I've been doing the same things as you've described and in the best interests of the Pt, the Doc, and a good relationship between the Doc/Tech. For many years I've supported young docs and docs who are in constant need of guidance and assistance. I've gone past the point where I can continue with being a charity for these operators - the losses associated with these long-drawn-out jobs diminish the profitability of the good accounts. I'm looking to fund a satisfactory retirement and a good quality standard of living, so I'm getting tougher with the figures on a 'business' level (numbers don't lie). This week I've terminated a relationship with a practice because it's costing me to work for them ( for reasons like in your previous post). No more.
I do not wish to appear unnecessarily critical, I'm just wishing to share my experience and give some help where it may be of use. Our time is valuable. If your asistance to these docs brings good rewards then you're doing nothing wrong, i wish you the best in your job.

 

[XxJamesAxX]

Araucaria, I fully support the angle your coming from and understand. I've had accounts in the past and currently have 1 that is borderline abusing these services, I'm currently in the process of weaning him off

I'd have to say I'm lucky for the most part I dont have accounts that really just want me there to hold there hand, more so just to help out when a difficult case arises.

Thanks for sharing your experience and opinions though. I dont think we differ much and both understand where the other is coming from. Hopefully others will get something out of our discussion as well. Thanks for the chat, its amazing how much you can learn from these boards. If nothing else it helps you think about things from different angles.

 

[kcdt]

Thats where me and you look at it different and I'm sure we can go back and forth on this all day long. IMO though it is a investment. Its a investment in my relationship with that dr. and my business. Its a service that I offer that sets me apart from a lab that is much cheaper but hundreds of miles away.

Yeah, well, if I had a nickle for every one of those "investments" that didn't pay off I'd be rich AND a genius.

 

[marvel]

Do you ask Picasso what he paid for his paints?

Most p/ts don't care what a dental ceramist pays for raw materials; they want a strong, beautiful, natural-looking restoration. Oh! and not to feel ripped off by their dentist.

When you fall in love with a painting do you care what the artist paid for the paints?

Lab tech is such a misnomer. It hides the decision making, skill, and artistry that goes into creating even one strong lifelike tooth! Even the title Master Ceramist is one few folk outside the industry appreciate.

When a p/t is pleased with their restoration do you think they would love to know it is not the product of some vague repetitive process, but rather the unique design and creation of a talented and caring artist?

Personally I want to meet the man who will make my teeth! The use value of a lovely restoration is beyond price.

That said, beautiful teeth do have their downsides. Some of the nicest folk become narcissists. :biggrin: So many of the rest have to fend off the other sex. :kiss:

 

[araucaria]

Extract

Thanks for sharing your experience and opinions though. I dont think we differ much and both understand where the other is coming from. Hopefully others will get something out of our discussion as well. Thanks for the chat, its amazing how much you can learn from these boards. If nothing else it helps you think about things from different angles.

ditto, communication of our thoughts and experiences is not an easy thing, and it's common for us to be misunderstood sometimes. I think we're all aiming for the same goals though, we're just going about the journey differently.

 

[rkm rdt]

Every successful business is built on the same foundation — providing value in a way that resonates with their customers.

The luxury goods house Hermès provides value in the eyes of its customers when it sells a $96,000 crocodile handbag.

Apple provides value in the eyes of its customers with impeccable design and usability in everything they create, even though they’re virtually never the cheapest option.



Starbucks provides value in the eyes of its customers by delivering a break in a busy day, a consistent product, and the “third place” between home and work that was the driving vision for its CEO.

You may very well think people are foolish to buy from one (or all) of these companies. You may not see the value.

But you and I don’t get to decide what’s valuable. Customers do.

Good businesses know what their customers value today.

Great businesses know how they can deliver that value in an irreplaceable way. Their customers would never consider switching brands — because only their favorite can deliver the value they crave in the way they crave it.

 

[Tom Moore]

Every successful business is built on the same foundation — providing value in a way that resonates with their customers.

The luxury goods house Hermès provides value in the eyes of its customers when it sells a $96,000 crocodile handbag.

Apple provides value in the eyes of its customers with impeccable design and usability in everything they create, even though they’re virtually never the cheapest option.



Starbucks provides value in the eyes of its customers by delivering a break in a busy day, a consistent product, and the “third place” between home and work that was the driving vision for its CEO.

You may very well think people are foolish to buy from one (or all) of these companies. You may not see the value.

But you and I don’t get to decide what’s valuable. Customers do.

Good businesses know what their customers value today.

Great businesses know how they can deliver that value in an irreplaceable way. Their customers would never consider switching brands — because only their favorite can deliver the value they crave in the way they crave it.

I agree that any product or service will bring only what the market will pay for it despite the cost to produce it or the great intentions of those that made it.