prices to public

[rkm rdt]

Araucaria,
what are the regulations for RDT's in the UK?

 

[araucaria]

We'd like to adopt your system, but we're stuck with the 'hidden' info that the most of the world works with (free market?) For decades we've had to endure the ultra low fees connected with the National Health Service (Gov't) and the time has arrived where things are beginning to change. The level of work (Gov't/nhs) that is provided for patients has diminished, but is still around - the quality is very poor. The majority of surgerys now provide a private service only and this has gradually led to raised expectation levels. Patients are getting more information from the internet especially as they are spending a lot more money - this may actually encourage some 'openness' regarding what quality of workmanship they recieve.

 

[rkm rdt]

Our system isn't perfect but it serves the patient better than it used to.

Gone are the days of the old boy's network that would give the dentists volume discounts,gifts,hookers and anything else to get their lab work.

Imagine the patient being told he will get the best crown made for his money.Only to have the dentist send to the lab who gives him the biggest discount in his pocket on top of his own fees.

Meanwhile the mom and pop lab down the street gets screwed because they can only compete on quality .So what does the small guy do to stay alive?

He outsources to China to hopefully keep his accounts and the big boys cry fowl!

How ironic.
The chickens are coming home to roost.

 

[patmo141]

I totally understand the mechanic bill and that is a very good point. Parts + labor. That is slightly different though because typically they are billing by the hour. Whereas in our profession we bill by the "proceedure" for the most part thus the huge drive to be "productive". Without getting into a slew of health care delivery models, I'm still not understanding what full lab fee disclosure will do. This is a good healthy discussion and I think it's more of what is needed between dentists and their labs. Our fixed and operative professors have stressed many many times how important it is to have a good relationship with the lab.

-P

 

[araucaria]

Araucaria,
what are the regulations for RDT's in the UK?

A recent development is the requirement for labs to issue a 'patient statement' with every piece of work. It has to include the manufactiring lab's details, identify the patient, identify the products, identify the level of service/quality as required, and any other special information that's deemed as neccessary by the lab.
Only the price is excluded, but pricing bands may be noted.
The doc should inform the patient of the availability of this statement(generally doesn't happen) and keep the document at the surgery if the patient declines to take away the statement. It should be kept on file for the lifetime of the appliance and be available at any time in the future if the patient requests it.
It's a nuisance for us to produce these when we know they generally go straight into the bin, but I feel they will help us in the long term. The statements should show clearly if the work has been sourced from outside of the UK but I think many docs are too ashamed to hand over a statement that states this fact and so it goes in the bin. 'Agency' labs are acting as go-betweens with the outsourcing, and the registered tech in these labs signs off the work as 'fit for purpose'.

 

[rkm rdt]

Full lab fee disclosure gives the patient informed consent.

Regarding: FDA complient materials
source of fabrication
Supervising CDT
It gives laboratories and Dental Technicians patient awareness and recognition of their services
It also allows labs to charge fair market prices for their work by eliminating any possible markup or kickback schemes.If the dentist needs to make more profit then they can raise their own fees.This improves accountability to the patient.

You probably made the most important statement today when you said
"Our fixed and operative professors have stressed many many times how important it is to have a good relationship with the lab"

Full disclosure improves the dentist and lab relationship

 

[Mark Jackson]

A recent development is the requirement for labs to issue a 'patient statement' with every piece of work. It has to include the manufactiring lab's details, identify the patient, identify the products, identify the level of service/quality as required, and any other special information that's deemed as neccessary by the lab.
Only the price is excluded, but pricing bands may be noted.
The doc should inform the patient of the availability of this statement(generally doesn't happen) and keep the document at the surgery if the patient declines to take away the statement. It should be kept on file for the lifetime of the appliance and be available at any time in the future if the patient requests it. It's a nuisance for us to produce these when we know they generally go straight into the bin, but I feel they will help us in the long term. The statements should show clearly if the work has been sourced from outside of the UK but I think many docs are too ashamed to hand over a statement that states this fact and so it goes in the bin. 'Agency' labs are acting as go-betweens with the outsourcing, and the registered tech in these labs signs off the work as 'fit for purpose'.

"Quote: Rkm Rdt:

Full lab fee disclosure gives the patient informed consent.

Regarding: FDA complient materials
source of fabrication
Supervising CDT
It gives laboratories and Dental Technicians patient awareness and recognition of their services

Where have I heard this before?

http://dentallabnetwork.com/forums/f48/what-industry-needs-6387/

 

[patmo141]

I hadn't even considered the FDA regulation of the materials or the requirement of a supervising CDT. I guess I just took all that for granted. The "what the industry needs" post was enlightening too. I had no idea those things went on. Now I get it.


naively,
-Patrick

 

[cheadlemick]

A recent development is the requirement for labs to issue a 'patient statement' with every piece of work. It has to include the manufactiring lab's details, identify the patient, identify the products, identify the level of service/quality as required, and any other special information that's deemed as neccessary by the lab.
Only the price is excluded, but pricing bands may be noted.
The doc should inform the patient of the availability of this statement(generally doesn't happen) and keep the document at the surgery if the patient declines to take away the statement. It should be kept on file for the lifetime of the appliance and be available at any time in the future if the patient requests it.
It's a nuisance for us to produce these when we know they generally go straight into the bin, but I feel they will help us in the long term. The statements should show clearly if the work has been sourced from outside of the UK but I think many docs are too ashamed to hand over a statement that states this fact and so it goes in the bin. 'Agency' labs are acting as go-betweens with the outsourcing, and the registered tech in these labs signs off the work as 'fit for purpose'.

In France they have to have the price printed on the statement! This is given to the patient!

 

[Tom Moore]

I've had dentist buy from me when it was all done by me in-house. In some cases it was hundreds of dollar difference to their patients from one practice to the other. That was alright because I knew there was more to their price for a crown than what I sold them a crown for. The dentist is my customer and the patient is their customer and for me that has never changed.

 

[rkm rdt]

In France they have to have the price printed on the statement! This is given to the patient!

That's exactly how it's done here as well.The dentist gets paid fairly for their work and I get paid fairly for mine.

...and the patient doesn't get a bunch of melted pennies!

 

[HDL Owner]

Occasionally I get patients directed to my lab by the Dr for custom work and fees always come up: "so,what do you charge the dentist for my dentures?" It doesn't work by per unit fee. The dentist contracts my services for a month to month basis, not a per denture fee, so I have no idea what your denture will cost your dentist. End of that conversation.

 

[Tom Moore]

I tell them all about how the dentist is a licensed professional and there is much more to their treatment than the products and services he buys from me and if you really want to know this trivia move your ars to France.

 

[disturbed]

not happy.. I agree, we should inform the patients as the doctor rarely tells them that they just seated a non-precious with open margins cause he didn't want a remake charge for his crap impression...

 

[rkm rdt]

not happy.. I agree, we should inform the patients as the doctor rarely tells them that they just seated a non-precious with open margins cause he didn't want a remake charge for his crap impression...

If you know it is a crap impression then why do you work with it?

 

[Tom Moore]

Come on let get over the fact that the patient is not our customer, they are our customers customer.

I've see the anger from us when companies we buy from start doing what we do and just selling the products to us. Somehow we feel we have some right to interfere with the relationship between our customer and their customer in what seems more selfintrest than the pataints intrest. After millions of custom dental devices done offshore there is no smoking gun of any problems with that work. This is a turf war plane and simple and thier is nothing wrong with that. Stop hiding behind and faining worry about the poor old pataint.

If we take care of our customer to the best of our ability then we have added what is expected of us in the equation of dental treatment.

 

[rkm rdt]

Come on let get over the fact that the patient is not our customer, they are our customers customer.

Maybe in your world but not mine.

I have a responsibility to the patient as well as the dentist.I carry professional liability insurance and must maintain a Quality Assurance profile.

We are self regulated professionals accountable not only to our peers but to the paying public.

With all due respect,You don't speak for me.

 

[Tom Moore]

Take an extra deep breath the air must thin up there on that high horse.......

They don't let plumbers and bail bondsmen self regulate here or me either but alas we are still not considered professionals by anyone but ourselves, and we are licensed. That certainly doesn't mean we can't act professionally.

I would not presume to speak for those that can speak for themselves and ask questions...even the patient.

Product liability insurance is cheap and any lab without it is taking an unnecessary risk.

 

[rkm rdt]

We shipped that way of thinking to the glue factory about 20 years ago....

 

[Alistar]

Take an extra deep breath the air must thin up there on that high horse.......

They don't let plumbers and bail bondsmen self regulate here or me either but alas we are still not considered professionals by anyone but ourselves, and we are licensed. That certainly doesn't mean we can't act professionally.

I would not presume to speak for those that can speak for themselves and ask questions...even the patient.

Product liability insurance is cheap and any lab without it is taking an unnecessary risk.

What about when the patient comes to you and you refer them to a doc you know? Who's patient is that? What about when you're doing work for a family member? What about when you're doing no prep veneers for your wife?