What are the best Zr mills out there in your opinion?

[Glenn Kennedy]

Again, you can look at mills as a collection of pieces and parts or as a complete, engineered system. The Roland engineering team designed the DWX mills for a specific task: accurate, high quality dental restorations in specific materials. In my opinion and the opinion of those who use the DWX mills they achieved their goal. It does what it was designed to do, day in and day out at a low cost of ownership.

 

[KentPWalton]

Again, you can look at mills as a collection of pieces and parts or as a complete, engineered system. The Roland engineering team designed the DWX mills for a specific task: accurate, high quality dental restorations in specific materials. In my opinion and the opinion of those who use the DWX mills they achieved their goal. It does what it was designed to do, day in and day out at a low cost of ownership.

I was just curious about the accuracy of driven spindles vs screw spindles. Thanks for the insight Glenn. I will look further into the Roland mill.

 

[Glenn Kennedy]

Glad to help Kent. One more thing to consider, if you had purchased the DWX-50 when we first met you would have been an early adopter. At this point the DWX-50 is a proven platform so you are not testing someone's latest design.

 

[charles007]

I think 2014 will be the year a lot of 5 axis mills being sold, especially the new imes-icore 250i, 450i, ZirkonZahn M1, A. Girrbach Ceramill, and the long waited Wieland Select. Bet the Roland DWX 50 will keep on trucking in sells.
Will be interesting to learn whether or not we see increases in sells of 4 axis mills such as assorted vhf's mills, imes 240i, Ceramill, and other 4 axis mills. Will we see lower prices on 4 axis mills in 2014 ?
Best mill, best built mill ? its all about $$ and not over spending..

 

[JohnWilson]

I think 2014 will be the year a lot of 5 axis mills being sold, especially the new imes-icore 250i, 450i, ZirkonZahn M1, A. Girrbach Ceramill, and the long waited Wieland Select. Bet the Roland DWX 50 will keep on trucking in sells.
Will be interesting to learn whether or not we see increases in sells of 4 axis mills such as assorted vhf's mills, imes 240i, Ceramill, and other 4 axis mills. Will be see lower prices on 4 axis mills in 2014 ?
Best mill, best built mill ? its all about $$ and not over spending..

I think 2014 will be the year a lot of 5 axis mills being sold, especially the new imes-icore 250i, 450i, ZirkonZahn M1, A. Girrbach Ceramill, and the long waited Wieland Select. Bet the Roland DWX 50 will keep on trucking in sells.
Will be interesting to learn whether or not we see increases in sells of 4 axis mills such as assorted vhf's mills, imes 240i, Ceramill, and other 4 axis mills. Will be see lower prices on 4 axis mills in 2014 ?
Best mill, best built mill ? its all about $$ and not over spending..

Best is so subjective and changes drastically on what the users needs are and as technology continues to improve.

All I can offer is if you're planning on becoming a manufacturer is please understand your costs, have the means to support what ever machine you invest in. Use it and make money with sound business principals.

Just having a shiney mill in the corner no matter how great the specs are will not make you money if you do not have a business plan. If you are not currently outsourcing the products you intend on manufacturing please become a design lab first, then invest in a mill that will make you money.

I see old school analog dental techs fighting now to grasp hold of digital and are really struggling to compete. I know some guys that felt this is what they had to do to become competitive but did not implement a strategy based on sound principles or any relevant business plan. These individuals did not go belly up it just has taken them considerably longer to make any real ROI as their strategy was flawed from day one.

I wish you luck in your decisions and may you all have a profitable new year.

 

[brayks]

Warning; likely painfully long (and possibly boring) post to follow, continue at own risk!

Speaking as an ex-CNC machine tool repair technician, I believe spindle performance is a key factor in determining the quality and effectiveness of a Dental Machining Center and should be evaluated by transmission (movement, torque, power, force and speed),heat (loss and expansion),vibration, noise, maintenance & cost.

I did a quick Tech Profile article in the January issue of Inside Dental Technology that touch very briefly on machine tool construction issues that may be of value. However relative to the spindle systems. Here's a quickie on types:

Belt Driven Systems: low cost and good performance; about 95% efficient in transferring motor power to spindle, usually used in applications under 15,000 rpm; high thermal expansion, noisy; belt tensioning reduces loading capacity of bearings (not good). I'm personally not a fan of belt driven systems in high rpm applications (got a couple of T-Shirts in this area ).

Direct Drive Systems: 100% efficiency; Best choice in applications requiring high rpm, dimensional precision and high quality surface finishes; low vibration and noise levels;

Integrated Drive Spindles: Motor integrated into spindle assembly, extremely low vibration and noise; high rpm capabilities; Spindle housing, and design critical, must control internal heat transfer and thermal expansion within the system for good performance; critical to have system for removing heat. Expensive as they require precision assembly and aux cooling/monitoring system.

In any configuration, the quality of the spindle components is of great importance as they not only determine longevity of the spindle; they determine how the spindle handles speed, torque and vibration. Types of bearings and lubrication used are also important.

Definitely check out spindle repair history and repair/replacement costs with your supplier.

The Dental Machining Center solution we offer is the Arum VersaMILL 5X. The VersaMILL is a very high quality machine tool. Justification for machines in this price range defiantly depends on your near and long term goals. While you can in fact (as some of our customers do),justify the expenditure on zirconia milling alone, the real value and where they really shine is in the area of metal (titanium, stainless steel, cobalt chrome) for bars, implants, etc.If you plans include the ability to do both zirconia and metal, a VersaMILL type machine is something you might want to consider looking into.

Also our website has a section that discusses machine tool component quality as well. You may find this area of value; particularly the features tab, quality construction area.The site URL is: http://axsysdental.com/VersaMILL_Main-7.html

OK, that's enough (likely too much I know); as you were...

 

[Orthodox]

So Charles 007, I'm in front of a decision - what to bay? I am more focused on 450i, so what you thing?

 

[charles007]

You need to talk with Tyler who is having a secret love affair with his 450i...
From what I hear, it does everything but talks.
If your planning to mill metal, and a little higher in price, you may want to check out the Zubler.

 

[BobCDT]

I was just curious to see what everyone's opinions were on what are the best Zr mills out there today. 4 or 5 axis mills will be fine. Wet or dry. Just curious to see what everyone says.

At CAP we sell both Imes and Roland mills. Currently we are using the following mills in our milling center:
Roland DWX50
Roland DWX4
Imes 250
Imes 450
Imes 550
For milling zirconia you can't beat the Roland DWX50 for ease of use, ROI, quality of output and cost to maintain. This mill will mill about 60 units of zirconia a day. In addition, it does a great job milling wax and PMMA. You had questioned "what is the best mill for zirconia" no reason to buy a wet mill for zirconia. If or when you decide you need to mill wet then your looking for a different solution. Buying a mill based on the indication is the way to go.
I would stay away form 4 axis as it will limit, or restrict you from milling bridges with undercuts and screw retained bridges. It is well worth getting the 5axis just for these two indications. In addition, 5 axis saves materials, tools, time and frustration.
Honestly all of the mills in the list are workhorses. We have been milling e.max in the 250 since we plugged it in. About 15 hours a day. The 450 is used for titanium custom abutments and e.max. The 550 for custom titanium abutments.
In conclusion, I don't believe there to be a single best mill. It's more about selecting a specific mill for a specific indication. Again, for Zi it's the Roland DWX50.

 

[BobCDT]

Please don't take my last post wrong, I'm just a big of a fan of Imes mills as I am for Rolands. It's a simple formula for choosing the correct mill for the material and indication you need to produce. I definitely like Imes for most of the hard materials that require wet milling.

 

[user name]

Bob...what are you using the DWX4 to do? Are you going to be showing us some comparisons?

 

[charles007]

Bob, please explain how 5 axis saves time and tools ? Guess tool saving comes from being able to use a smaller puck, and slight less mill time from smaller pucks when possible. Anything else ?
This is a what if question, and put you on the spot question....sorry !
What if the 250i could be special ordered without the wet milling feature, how would it compare to the Roland since they would be very close in price.

 

[BobCDT]

Bob...what are you using the DWX4 to do? Are you going to be showing us some comparisons?

We just received the 4. Like any new mill we are running tests. So far so good. Once we put it into production I will report back.

 

[BobCDT]

Bob, please explain how 5 axis saves time and tools ? Guess tool saving comes from being able to use a smaller puck, and slight less mill time from smaller pucks when possible. Anything else ?
This is a what if question, and put you on the spot question....sorry !
What if the 250i could be special ordered without the wet milling feature, how would it compare to the Roland since they would be very close in price.

No problem Charles.
You got it correct. There are a certain percentage of cases that will require thicker pucks if milled in a 4 axis mill. This adds to mill time and tool usage. In fact, there are some cases that simply will not fit into the thickest disk available for a 4 axis mill job. But, when put in a 5 axis mill could be milled easily in a much thinner disk.
In addition, we have been working with a new zirconia disk that is be multilayered or multicolored. 5axis will be more suitable for milling, as you can place the units into the disk to optimize the restoration for controlling the layers for color. When placing some units into a 4 axis mill for layered Zi you will loose the flexibility to align the parts for best color control.
At CAP we optimize mills and CAM based on what we would plan to use a mill for. It has never been a plan at CAP to mill zirconia in a 250. There is no way we can justify the added cost of the mill for milling Zi. The 250 was designed to mill sintered ceramic materials. As a result we have not optimized this. So, I really can't give you a fair answer. In addition, the 250 is available only in a wet version.
Please note, I don't mind spending money on mills and technology. We have a lot of different pieces of equipment and software solutions at CAP. Our goal is simple, best result, most indications for a given material and best ROI to get the job done. For Zi we have determined this to be the Roland DWX50. Again, we do love the Imes mills for other materials and indications.

 

[cadfan]

I ll think for cap its not possible to answer the 250 question , if you buy any mill you must answer the question what will you mill and can you answer this question for the future.If you have only one mill or will you buy a few for each application.The 250 is very different construction than roland so if you want all options for the future theirs only one way,If you buy a roland maybe you have to buy a wet soon if you buy a 250 maybe you buy a roland too because of your rising production.

 

[alphadental]

I do not know much about milling, what about Vhf 5s1? Mill price is around $50-55k and it can mill much more materials than Roland and cost around $25-30 k less then Icore 450 . Also I would like to hear some one opinion about Origin/Yanadent mills .

 

[BobCDT]

I have a couple of used Origin mills I would sell for a really good price. Please PM me if interested.

 

[BobCDT]

I don't believe the VHF 5s1 has been released yet. So any info is likely speculation.

 

[alphadental]

Bob, thank you . I am not looking to buy used mill now . I just ask for opinion . Can You share what do you think about this mills?

 

[cadfan]

I do not know much about milling, what about Vhf 5s1? Mill price is around $50-55k and it can mill much more materials than Roland and cost around $25-30 k less then Icore 450 . Also I would like to hear some one opinion about Origin/Yanadent mills .

5 k1 is more comparable with a 250 i
i 250 granit based like big mills