SynOcta miscast help!

[rkm rdt]

I had a similar problem last week with an ID Replant UCLA with alloy spilling over onto the mating surface. Doug Jackson recommended doing the scoring around the area where the alloy meets the titanium to act as a momentum break. So the next one I cast to replace the first one, cast out perfectly.
I didn't change my liquid powder ratio at all from what I normally cast similar alloy - in fact three other crowns were in the ring with it. If expansion doesn't matter - why change it?
I did clean the surface with alcohol.
No debub when investing.
I burn porcelain alloys out to 1500ºF and cast at that temp - no drop. Full gold I drop to 750ºF before casting.

I think the biggest problem with my first casting was that I "pre-invested" the UCLA while it was on the sprue by running investment down into the hole and around the mating surface. Then after setting I invested the ring. Big problem with alloy all over the UCLA mating surface and a trapped bubble inside the screw hole.

Doug's tip of running floss through the hole and just investing the whole thing at once fixed all that, and the scoring around the edge probably contributed to no alloy where it shouldn't be.

Oh yeah - I didn't sprue vent as extensively as the photo above. Not that that has anything to do with the problem - but i used a square yellow Belle de St. Clair sprue gate to a runner bar, with only one small 2mm long vent on the opposite side of the crown from the sprue point about half way down the side of the crown. No porosity at all in the final casting. I do my waxing and finishing under a microscope - so I would have seen porosity if it were there.

Be careful using 3rd party components.Straumann has issued a warning that the use of 3rd party abutments ie. Atlantis,ID, (Glidewell? cad/cam) will void their implant warranty.

 

[JonB]

Implant Direct has what looks like a pretty good pedigree, same as Atlantis. The question would be who would be responsible in a failure - if the implant failed, why would that void the warranty on the abutment part of the restoration. If the abutment failed -why would that reflect on the implant itself. If the porcelain failed - why would that reflect on either one of the "parts" suppliers. I know we could extrapolate worst case scenarios - but really - are you saying placing an Atlantis abutment means you will be hung out to twist? That sorta rocks their marketing if that cat gets out of the bag!

This means all third party milled bars is a mess waiting to happen. I'm not buying that way of thinking. There is no way a cast bar is superior to a milled bar - no way in hell!

 

[JonB]

Here are a few picts of my failure - to give an idea of what i rejected, and how i got there. Sorry i don't have any "in process" shots.

Shows where the vent was placed and a side view...


Shows the mating surface - if you look closely you will see the rough areas where there was spillage.


And i just sorta liked this shot - so I'm throwing it in for fun...


... for the record - once i knew this one was toast - I glass beaded the whole thing to clean it up for pics... knowing it was going in the scrap box anyway... had i thought ahead - I'da shot it before the beading - oh well

 

[TheLabGuy]

Great photo's Jon, but what do you mean by "spillage"?......and what caused it?

 

[JonB]

Great photo's Jon, but what do you mean by "spillage"?......and what caused it?

Thanks for the question, Rob!

Its where the alloy spilled over the outer border of the abutment surface and adhered to it in a couple spots on the flat surface and in one spot along one lobe. I could "adjust" it off and polish it - but it wouldn't fit the same as if it were machined - so I opted to cast a new one. Live and learn.

I hadn't done a UCLA in over 10 years and probably wasn't that good at them then. Having 12 units of UCLAs in process on milled bars - i was glad to learn this lesson BEFORE i tried to cast bars. As it is - i'm backing up and now I'm going to have them milled instead. (That was my first suggestion to the dr to begin with) Can you imagine a miscast on one of those bars - the expense! No thank you!

 

[TheLabGuy]

Thanks for the question, Rob!

Its where the alloy spilled over the outer border of the abutment surface and adhered to it in a couple spots on the flat surface and in one spot along one lobe. I could "adjust" it off and polish it - but it wouldn't fit the same as if it were machined - so I opted to cast a new one. Live and learn.

I hadn't done a UCLA in over 10 years and probably wasn't that good at them then. Having 12 units of UCLAs in process on milled bars - i was glad to learn this lesson BEFORE i tried to cast bars. As it is - i'm backing up and now I'm going to have them milled instead. (That was my first suggestion to the dr to begin with) Can you imagine a miscast on one of those bars - the expense! No thank you!

gotcha!!!!!! Thanks Jon

As for the bar types and ucla, use the all plastic ones from Attachment International if the Doctor insists on it being casted versus milled. Cost peanuts compared to the traditional ucla type abutments.

 

[JonB]

I was wondering about that, Rob. But don't you end up with a "finished" or beaded surface? No precision fit? Since I've never used one - I don't know.

I can almost picture non-engaging UCLAs but what about Replace or 3i or Zimmer...? Are they even available?

 

[TheLabGuy]

Now you're treading into the age ole' argument about 'casted' restorations never being precision attachments. As for the engaging, yeah most of them are available, here

 

[rkm rdt]

My problem lies with the Staumann Synocta only.I have never had a problem with Nobel or others.

I just devested the latest attempt and the same problem occured.

I changed the water/liquid ratio from 3 ml water/20 ml liquid to 8 ml water/ 15 ml liquid to decrease the expansion.

No debubblizer,1500f ,1 hr hold

Same result , alloy has cast past the titanium interface and into the tapered walls.

Decreasing expansion has not worked.

 

[dmonwaxa]

My problem lies with the Staumann Synocta only.I have never had a problem with Nobel or others.

I just devested the latest attempt and the same problem occured.

I changed the water/liquid ratio from 3 ml water/20 ml liquid to 8 ml water/ 15 ml liquid to decrease the expansion.

No debubblizer,1500f ,1 hr hold

Same result , alloy has cast past the titanium interface and into the tapered walls.

Decreasing expansion has not worked.

rkm, sorry to hear that. As I outlined above with my technique, I burn out at a lower temp; 1435F - 1450F for HN, and 1355F for Au; GC investmet. That works for me. Others have argued against using a lower burnout but what I've found is that combi works; btw I've only been doing implants a couple over a couple of years,,,,I mean a couple of decades and surely I've seen my share of miscasts, spoken to several tech reps on the subject over the early years and none could solve the miscast mystery. Did the alcohol thing, I think some users may have a tendency to smear wax onto the surface inadvertently. Some folks use dielube during waxup which is definite no no. Im not in the office currently I'll double check the temps once I get back in. Meantime stay warm.

 

[paulg100]

Do You have the strumann manuals for synocta and also their crown and bridge techniques book? if not there may be something useful in there for you.

If you need them give me an email address and ill email the pdf versions to you.

 

[rkm rdt]

This will be the last cast abutment I do with Straumann.I found a local cad/cam lab.

The manual recommends using a high gold content alloy with at least 60% gold.

I have been trying to cast with a silver palladium alloy.This must be the problem however I find it odd that I can cast any other ucla brand in silver palladium without issue.

 

[dmonwaxa]

This will be the last cast abutment I do with Straumann.I found a local cad/cam lab.

The manual recommends using a high gold content alloy with at least 60% gold.

I have been trying to cast with a silver palladium alloy.This must be the problem however I find it odd that I can cast any other ucla brand in silver palladium without issue.

rkm, I only use T3 or T4 gold for abutments. After reviewing my temps my burnout temp is 1330F

 

[dmonwaxa]

Hint....

Depending on the magnitude of flash, the back of a #25 BP blade can be used effectively for removal.

 

[rkm rdt]

"Depending on the magnitude of flash, the back of a #25 BP blade can be used effectively for removal."

...unfortunately the semi precious is a bit harder to remove...I tried

By the way..how would you know that????????popcorn

 

[dmonwaxa]

"Depending on the magnitude of flash, the back of a #25 BP blade can be used effectively for removal."

...unfortunately the semi precious is a bit harder to remove...I tried

By the way..how would you know that????????popcorn

Not tellin,,,have you given thought of EDM? Not talked about much these days, and requires some special equipment and mods.

 

[DMC]

Strauman sent a rep from MA to VA to scare me about using non-strauman parts yesterday. It was kinda weird.

Boo!

 

[rkm rdt]

Strauman sent a rep from MA to VA to scare me about using non-strauman parts yesterday. It was kinda weird.

Boo!

They are trying to scare the dentists as well.It could blow up in their face.

I had the Nobel rep trying to convince me to buy their scanner.He assured me they could offer any implant platform including Straumann's.

So I suppose their warrantee does not apply in this case as well. I wonder what Nobel's response to this is? Do they have a special agreement with each other? If so how solid would it be if there was a failure?

My top account had the best answer, " I guess we won't use Sraumann any more".

 

[Brett Hansen CDT]

Be careful using 3rd party components.Straumann has issued a warning that the use of 3rd party abutments ie. Atlantis,ID, (Glidewell? cad/cam) will void their implant warranty.

Our implant market in Indianapolis is dominated by Straumann. We own an Etkon scanner. The abutments made with this scanner are inferior to the abutments I can get fabricated by Atlantis. Straumann has threatened our lab when they found out we have used Atlantis abutments for Straumann implants They said they wouldn't send any more work our way; the trouble with that was that they didn't send us any work from doctors we weren't already working with. They also warned our doctors that the warranty on their implants would be void if they used 3rd party abutments. Atlantis will honor the warranty on any implant where their abutment has been used.

We had a case about 3 months ago where the implant came loose in the mouth when the abutment was being seated. The dentist and the surgeon both knew that the abutment had nothing to do with the failure of the implant. The sales rep from Straumann told them that they would not honor the warranty because an Atlantis abutment had been used. When I found out what happened, I called my sales rep at Atlantis and they immediately sent a form to the dentist and the surgeon so that they could file a claim for Atlantis to pay for a new implant. When Straumann found out that Atlantis was going to pay for the implant to be replaced, they ended up honoring their warranty.

I hate being put in the middle between these large companies. My job is to restore the cases that come into our lab to the best of my ability. I know that the Atlantis abutment is far superior to the Straumann custom abutment. I always present both options to my doctors when deciding which abutment to go with. When they ask which one I would go with, I tell them that if it was my mouth, I would use Atlantis.

 

[rkm rdt]

Thankyou for sharing that Brett.