Procera Scanner

[bentley]

I would like to hear any input concerning the newest Nobel optical scanner. I am interested because it has an open platform capability AND is capable of scanning for milled bars. I own a small 5 person lab and do a good amount of implant work (esp bar cases) and want more control over the design.
In the past I have never been able to justfy the cost and especially since most are not open platform and can't scan for bars. I have asked a few lab owner friends about this and have gotten mixed reviews. One owner said there are software issues that have not been resolved and advised "don't buy it yet", he would be glad to do them for me (with a nobel scanner). I know this person does quality work and would not hesitate to send him the work-I am thinking that I would like to have the design control and this might be the time to "jump in". Please give me some input on this or any open platform scanner and the pros and cons of ownership.

Thanks

 

[paulg100]

i dont think there is a single system available now that does not have issues, limitations or bugs.

Its the old IT addage unfortunatly, theres always something better around the corner so you either commit or wait for ever.

You say its the right time to buy but there is a huge explosion in devolpment and innovation going on in the dental cad/cam market at the moment as you no doubt know.

Its a fair way off but i beleive that IDS in feb 2011 is the one to hold off for untill you make your decision.

keeps getting mentioned because they are storming ahead with their software dev but check the 2010 update from 3shape if you are interested in bar work.

As for nobel procera being open this is news to me? how open.. stl export / import?

 

[sixonice]

I would like to hear any input concerning the newest Nobel optical scanner. I am interested because it has an open platform capability AND is capable of scanning for milled bars. I own a small 5 person lab and do a good amount of implant work (esp bar cases) and want more control over the design.
In the past I have never been able to justfy the cost and especially since most are not open platform and can't scan for bars. I have asked a few lab owner friends about this and have gotten mixed reviews. One owner said there are software issues that have not been resolved and advised "don't buy it yet", he would be glad to do them for me (with a nobel scanner). I know this person does quality work and would not hesitate to send him the work-I am thinking that I would like to have the design control and this might be the time to "jump in". Please give me some input on this or any open platform scanner and the pros and cons of ownership.

Thanks

before you commit to the Nobel scanner, do yourself a favor and take a HARD look at this scanner. it will handle all your bar needs you can throw at it. in my opinion this is the best thing on the market: 3Shape - Dental System

 

[bentley]

Thanks to both for suggesting I look at 3shape-I will compare and be talking with them soon.

 

[bentley]

I was mistaken by using the term "open". Nobel is apparently going to mill on other platforms but you will still have to send it to nobel so it is not really open platform. I like the idea of 3 shape much better and it will give me more choices.

 

[paulg100]

No one in their right mind would buy into this kinda locked down system any more!, they still dont get it.

 

[JohnWilson]

No one in their right mind would buy into this kinda locked down system any more!, they still dont get it.

Actually Paul I think I am in my right mind

I have Nobels new system, I have been a partner with Nobel for more than 15years and have been very happy with my ROI on everything I have ever purchased from them. Closed or open means very little as fast as technology is changing. With that being said buying a 3shape scanner and partnering with a big milling center is not a bad way to go.

I purchased this system exclusively for how fast I can make custom abutments, and fortunately they are including many new products that are just adding gravy over my ROI. The wonderful thing about partnering with a company like Nobel is that they will not bait and switch yeah. They are committed to revamping the Procera name and have actively set up strategic partnerships with IVOCLAR and VITA. Their purchase of BioCad the worlds leader in milled Ti bars should be very telling that they are committed to excellence.

Milled Ti Cope/bridges
Milled CrCo Cope/bridges
Zi cope/bridges
Al cope/bridges
Milled EMAX
Ti Abuts
Zi Abuts
PIB's
Full Contour Temps Singles/bridges
Custom milled Ti Bars for over-dentures/Fixed hybrids

They are constantly improving the software and adding new things to the interface, the new 5 axis mills they are using are amazing after touring the NJ plant and taking my training I know what a factory is. Nobel will be a force and partnering with them has been a very profitable and sound thing for my lab.

 

[rkm rdt]

I can't even trade in my Picollo for a gazoo!

 

[JohnWilson]

I can't even trade in my Picollo for a gazoo!

Before purchasing this new system Rick I did close to 80 custom abutments a month with my Piccolo. It did everything I needed it to do for a modest investment. Again I purchased that unit exclusively for the abutments as I was doing only LAVA cores for my Zi and Inceram for my alumina. Soon after I switched almost all my single unit Zi restoration over to Procera. When the shaded cores came online, again it was gravy for us.

As for trade ins they will not specifically offer you anything but depending on your past track record with your production I am sure they will offer you some sort of compensation if you negotiate appropriately.

Just like any piece of equipment, do your homework, purchase what ever system makes the best sense for your operation based on your needs TODAY. Everything else changes as technology does.

 

[Al.]

Before purchasing this new system Rick I did close to 80 custom abutments a month with my Piccolo. It did everything I needed it to do for a modest investment. Again I purchased that unit exclusively for the abutments as I was doing only LAVA cores for my Zi and Inceram for my alumina. Soon after I switched almost all my single unit Zi restoration over to Procera. When the shaded cores came online, again it was gravy for us.

As for trade ins they will not specifically offer you anything but depending on your past track record with your production I am sure they will offer you some sort of compensation if you negotiate appropriately.

Just like any piece of equipment, do your homework, purchase what ever system makes the best sense for your operation based on your needs TODAY. Everything else changes as technology does.

Hi John,
I got a case in Fri. #8 & 9. 8 is a regular emax #9 a implant.I did the soft tissue model and got it seperated this morning.

Nobel Biocare, Branemark external hex.
If I send this unsawed model to you can you scan it and have a porcera abutment made for me?
Can you scan it and design the abuttment or do I have to wax it and you scan my wax up?

Thanks, Al

 

[paulg100]

"fortunately they are including many new products"

this is one of this risks you took when you bought into their system.

Also are they charging a competitive price for their components or fleecing you because they know they can? like other manufacturers.

The way things have changed over the past 2-3 years i dont feel that locking into one manufacturer is a good idea.

Many labs dont have the money to buy multiple systems therefore its important to ensure you have as much choice as possible after buying a system, which is something you loose with a closed system..choice.

We are currently paying around 2-3 times the price per unit for our in-house milled zirconia, than other milling centers, beacuse we are locked into the system. This has priced us out of the out sourcing market!

Even 3M look like they are trying to shaft there own lava centers with the restrictions on there new essentials range.

Maybe Nobel are the exception but this is the kinda c**p that manufacturers are getting up to which is why i would not get locked into a single company now, at any cost.

 

[JohnWilson]

Hi John,
I got a case in Fri. #8 & 9. 8 is a regular emax #9 a implant.I did the soft tissue model and got it seperated this morning.

Nobel Biocare, Branemark external hex.
If I send this unsawed model to you can you scan it and have a porcera abutment made for me?
Can you scan it and design the abuttment or do I have to wax it and you scan my wax up?

Thanks, Al

Hi Al,

Yes just send me the model work, no need to wax up a mock abutment. If you do a diag wax up I can place the margins on the abutment exactly where you want them to be.

I will fire you off an email as well.

 

[JohnWilson]

"fortunately they are including many new products"

this is one of this risks you took when you bought into their system.

Also are they charging a competitive price for their components or fleecing you because they know they can? like other manufacturers.

The way things have changed over the past 2-3 years i dont feel that locking into one manufacturer is a good idea.

Many labs dont have the money to buy multiple systems therefore its important to ensure you have as much choice as possible after buying a system, which is something you loose with a closed system..choice.

We are currently paying around 2-3 times the price per unit for our in-house milled zirconia, than other milling centers, beacuse we are locked into the system. This has priced us out of the out sourcing market!

Even 3M look like they are trying to shaft there own lava centers with the restrictions on there new essentials range.

Maybe Nobel are the exception but this is the kinda c**p that manufacturers are getting up to which is why i would not get locked into a single company now, at any cost.

I understand your resistance, but whenever I purchase a piece of equipment I sign a contract that locks in my pricing for a minimum of a year. At my existing Volume the unit pays itself off prior to the end of that contract. So if after this contract is over and they choose to raise my rates I look elsewhere. Its unlikely that it will happen. The absolute cheapest price is not always what it is all about. Partnering with a company that I trust and see value with that also has a significant market share is.

 

[Al.]

Hi Al,

Yes just send me the model work, no need to wax up a mock abutment. If you do a diag wax up I can place the margins on the abutment exactly where you want them to be.

I will fire you off an email as well.

Ok thanks John,
It went out today via UPS 2nd day air, you should get it Fri.

I sent the opposing the master model and I left the impression post still screwed on to the analog.
Al

 

[JohnWilson]

Great Al, I will give you a call when it comes in.

 

[bentley]

If you are sending custom abutments on an "open system" scanner do you find consistency issues with the milling centers? or are most do a good job for you.
Please comment

 

[JohnWilson]

If you are sending custom abutments on an "open system" scanner do you find consistency issues with the milling centers? or are most do a good job for you.
Please comment

I don't want to come off like a commercial for Nobel but I have to say that I did DEMO a few units and the new 5 axis mills that Nobel have purchased has really improved the surface of my custom abutments. The biggest improvements on Ti abutments have been when we design very parallel walls with a big shoulder margin. They are so much smoother and sharp than the old 3 axis mills.

I have seen some abutments from Glidewell that were not nearly as sharp as what I am getting today. I outsourced some from Whipmix Vericore(Zi) and they were very good.

Since I have no idea what kind of margins the milling centers are working with its hard to know how this will change. I know when investing millions of dollars on new mills and maintaining tooling to achieve optimum results has to be expensive. It would make sense that the small companies may start to try and stretch burr life. This quality COULD potentially vary quality. This opinion is just conjecture, the mill software may not allow this anyhow.

Its an exciting time for sure, I was getting bored and frustrated with the economy/industry but lately playing with all the new toys has become fun again.

 

[bentley]

After lots of reseach and contemplation I have decided to go with the new Procera scanner. The biggest deciding factor was Nobel's dominance in the implant bar area. I did a demo with the 3shape software and liked it-"did a couple of full contour Emax", but found that there are few (if any) milling companies that will mill bars for hybrids from the scanned files. Whip mix was the only one I found and it seemed limited. I also found the prices of Nobel's copings, custom abutments, ect.. to be competitive. They are also milling on the Straumann, Astra, and soon 3I platform. It was also reassuring that Nobel procera has a solid reputation and will warrant any failures with a Nobel implant replacement.
Just got the scanner today-waiting for the notebook which will also include surgical guide software.
I will keep you posted

 

[Al.]

Since this thread started John has scanned and had some custom abuttments milled for me.
They were very nice and it is a pleasure working with him.

 

[dmonwaxa]

I could almost feel the love,,,tehe, glad it worked out Al. John just exhudes excellence and quality. Hey not a bad thing being on here and making contacts and maybe some potential clients. I might just look into asking John also. Hey John!!!