printing patterns for pressing or casting

[Mark Jackson]

Mark, printing is 10x cheaper. I swear. We can print 200 units every 5 hours for pennys. The resolution is better than any .6mm bur can produce. Square corners and lines and secondary anatomy cone out in 30 micron resolution. Whatever you design will be printed for pennys....including all the super fine detail.

I had a roland, and four printers.....many CAM softwares....buying another printer. LOVE THEM! I will never mill wax again. Can you really mill wax for under $.25?? I seriously doubt it. We make good profit on $2.95 a unit prints, believe it or not.

Scott, we bought a giant $200 block of milling wax four years ago, and we are still using it. We remelt the scrap and add a few grams of new material and pour up the disks in a mold we had made. The cost is negligable.

I know the printers are working great for you, and the milling machines are working great for us. More than one way to skin a cat. I love high tech, but not if there is a low tech way to do the same thing. For the time being we'll stick with what's working, but when and if we ever buy a printer for patterns I'll consult you.

My next printer will probably print ceramics, composites or metal though.

 

[Clear Precision Dental]

... We bought a giant $200 block of milling wax four years ago, and we are still using it. We remelt the scrap and add a few grams of new material and pour up the disks in a mold we had made. .

Way to go, you frugal mad scientist you...

 

[dmonwaxa]

Way to go, you frugal mad scientist you...

Is it me or is anyone else questioning the use of this material is in fact in an off market way? Wouldnt reusing and remelting change the working characteristics and arrangement of the atoms on a molecular level in the new melt? Heck I'm wondering if the wax even has a 510K clearance....
popcornpopcornpopcornpopcornpopcornpopcornpopcorn

My Hero,,,

 

[Flipperlady]

Scott, we bought a giant $200 block of milling wax four years ago, and we are still using it. We remelt the scrap and add a few grams of new material and pour up the disks in a mold we had made. The cost is negligable.

I know the printers are working great for you, and the milling machines are working great for us. More than one way to skin a cat. I love high tech, but not if there is a low tech way to do the same thing. For the time being we'll stick with what's working, but when and if we ever buy a printer for patterns I'll consult you.

My next printer will probably print ceramics, composites or metal though.

How hard could it be to make a metal printer? Combine printer with furnace and vacuum caster. Is that mad scientist?!

 

[Mark Jackson]

Is it me or is anyone else questioning the use of this material is in fact in an off market way? Wouldnt reusing and remelting change the working characteristics and arrangement of the atoms on a molecular level in the new melt? Heck I'm wondering if the wax even has a 510K clearance....
popcornpopcornpopcornpopcornpopcornpopcornpopcorn

My Hero,,,

There is no 510k for wax. There is only FDA oversight for things that end up in peoples mouths. You really should have known better

 

[Mark Jackson]

How hard could it be to make a metal printer? Combine printer with furnace and vacuum caster. Is that mad scientist?!

I had two of them here. It's very difficult to get it right. Nano particles of metal powders, print heads with high resolution, uniform metal dispersion etc..

 

[dmonwaxa]

There is no 510k for wax. There is only FDA oversight for things that end up in peoples mouths. You really should have known better

 

[Flipperlady]

I had two of them here. It's very difficult to get it right. Nano particles of metal powders, print heads with high resolution, uniform metal dispersion etc..

I think the guy from King Faisal in Saudi Arabia was discussing research on what you are talking about and not having much luck either. I'm not up on nano particles but would envision perhaps instead printing mould as first step, "(skip wax pattern step) and injection cast. Why improve on that? The improvement would be to go straight past wax to mould stage.The investment could be improved upon (heat resistant hydocoloid like material that could maybe be sprueless as injector nozzel could act as sprue. All made into a nice tidy package to include finishing.

 

[DMC]

I think the guy from King Faisal in Saudi Arabia was discussing research on what you are talking about and not having much luck either. I'm not up on nano particles but would envision perhaps instead printing mould as first step, "(skip wax pattern step) and injection cast. Why improve on that? The improvement would be to go straight past wax to mould stage.The investment could be improved upon (heat resistant hydocoloid like material that could maybe be sprueless as injector nozzel could act as sprue. All made into a nice tidy package to include finishing.

Good idea!! Print water onto investment in layers. EASY!

I saw a youtube video of a teenager that turned a regular $99 printer into a 3d printer. It printed water onto Dental stone! The Z-axis (a build plate) lowered and a new layer of powder stone is applied and leveled.....printhead lays down next "slice" of water...repeat.

It looked just like a solidscape printer. (which is still a 1980s relic)

The powder that does not touch water is brushed away and recycled with 50% new stone powder.

The end output could be infiltrated with cyno-acyralate and made more dense and hard....like plastic, or a resin-stone.

Cool, huh?

Take an STL file.....slice it into ctl format (layers or pages for a printer to print.) Instead of grabbing a new piece of paper, the printer does a different operation. Lower the Z-axis the same thickness as the ctl slice...and brush on a new layer of powder also that same thickness...then print next page.

 

[DMC]

Hmmm, now that I think about it, there was such a machine already made for sale on ebay a while back.

That machine exists already for bigger applications. Like a V8 engine sand-cast mould.


Maybe this is the video I saw??? I am watching it now.....

[YOUTUBE]2nbtZOolSIY[/YOUTUBE]

 

[DMC]

naaa. That's not it.

Way too many 3d printer videos uploaded for me to sift thru.

It was a wheel model, that was printed in White Dental stone....using water in a regular HP printer!!

Had a motorized "wiper" that leveled off each layer after the Z drop.

Kid added a USB controled material system for auto loading/leveling in between pages. Just wiped back and fourth a pile of stone.

 

[Flipperlady]

So we're back to sand casting eh! While it would be easy to print labstone, I'm not sure it would be practcal..... You would need a matrix that is sturdy enough, but easy to clean. It couldn't be your dad's old investment and casting ring. Actually, i have heard of nano particles (although don't know enough) but wonder if they tried using a matrix when researching.Could you print with hydrocolloid ? I'd like to see the labstone printer,thanks!

 

[paulg100]

"My next printer will probably print ceramics"

Ah well you got plenty of time to save for that, the last article i read (think it was in dental products report) the guy was hoping to hit the market in around 20 years!

 

[DMC]

So we're back to sand casting eh! While it would be easy to print labstone, I'm not sure it would be practcal..... You would need a matrix that is sturdy enough, but easy to clean. It couldn't be your dad's old investment and casting ring. Actually, i have heard of nano particles (although don't know enough) but wonder if they tried using a matrix when researching.Could you print with hydrocolloid ? I'd like to see the labstone printer,thanks!

Sorry,. you lost me there??
You heard of a nano particle?
Matrix?

Have you seen any SLS (Selective laser sintering) printers using powder and laser? Same thing, but with water and water activated binders in material./

 

[Flipperlady]

Sorry,. you lost me there??
You heard of a nano particle?
Matrix?

Have you seen any SLS (Selective laser sintering) printers using powder and laser? Same thing, but with water and water activated binders in material./

Sorry, I was kind of going back to a previous post. The nano particles are being use to add strength to all kinds of products. I was just thinking it could be used to make a light water soluable material tough enough to be used as an investment, not in the traditional sense but more of a "matrix" (poor choice of words,what word am i looking for). That would be able to hold all kinds of materials. Actually i thought of this idea years ago when they were talking about regenerating (growing)teeth as same concept could be used there too.
I haven't seen the printer you are talking about yet. I'm new to all this and trying to learn.

 

[dmonwaxa]

Sorry, I was kind of going back to a previous post. The nano particles are being use to add strength to all kinds of products. I was just thinking it could be used to make a light water soluable material tough enough to be used as an investment, not in the traditional sense but more of a "matrix" (poor choice of words,what word am i looking for). That would be able to hold all kinds of materials. Actually i thought of this idea years ago when they were talking about regenerating (growing)teeth as same concept could be used there too.
I haven't seen the printer you are talking about yet. I'm new to all this and trying to learn.

Are you speaking of a matrix similar to a meshike structure serving as a framework or skeleton to be filled in with a desirable material? Infiltration? If that's it they've done it on a larger scale

 

[Mark Jackson]

Back when I was working on the Alpha and Beta versions of Imagen, I spent many days at the prometal plant in Irwin. They have been printing investment casting molds for decades there. In fact, the Lambroghini people would test different head designs by going to the track, evaluating performance, tweaking little areas and sending the file to them and having a new head made, literally within hours of driving it.

The point is, you don't want to cast. What we want to do is eliminate error propegation and ampification by cutting out as many steps as possible. It's why we want to have monolithic crowns, directly from a digitial impression if possible.

Any steps in between is just a high tech answer to an already inferior low tech problem.

 

[Flipperlady]

Back when I was working on the Alpha and Beta versions of Imagen, I spent many days at the prometal plant in Irwin. They have been printing investment casting molds for decades there. In fact, the Lambroghini people would test different head designs by going to the track, evaluating performance, tweaking little areas and sending the file to them and having a new head made, literally within hours of driving it.

The point is, you don't want to cast. What we want to do is eliminate error propegation and ampification by cutting out as many steps as possible. It's why we want to have monolithic crowns, directly from a digitial impression if possible.

Any steps in between is just a high tech answer to an already inferior low tech problem.

I think then unless you are doing a direct restoration (by which i mean making the thing directly in the mouth) then you are going to have room for error. You are only going to be able to get it just so perfect. Teeth shift, tissue swells. My oppinion is the digital age is really about who can make it cheaper, faster, with less waste.Plus it's really cool. As far as accurate, I'm less sold and think a digital restoration would not be as good as one coming from an experienced dentist with traditional impression and lab tech.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Are you speaking of a matrix similar to a meshike structure serving as a framework or skeleton to be filled in with a desirable material? Infiltration? If that's it they'be don't on aatger scale

Exactly. We were making dual phase interpentrating composite crowns on the Iamgen printers. Captek chemistry, but in a much more consistent basis.

 

[Mark Jackson]

As far as accurate, I'm less sold and think a digital restoration would not be as good as one coming from an experienced dentist with traditional impression and lab tech.

Opposite is true, I promise you. There is no argument an intraoral scan is more accurate than any impression. Going directly from that scan to a crown, without a model is my goal.

There is no error to dogpile and get worse.