Is NobelBiocare our competition? And Why?

[h.tavares]

I recently received an email from NobelBiocare saying they are discontinuing with the Legacy scanners. WTF.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RJS8669]

They were bought out. New company probably realizing that their CAD/CAM solutions weren't all that. My rep told they are starting to work more closely with 3Shape...

 

[Jason D]

indeed they are now promoting 3shape compatibility and doing some strong-arming in our area, (reminds me of some of the straumann conversations I have had,) local reps attempting to steer dr clients with bad info and having it blow up in their faces

 

[rkm rdt]

 

[JohnWilson]

It's nothing more than economics in my opinion. The had a team of software IT guys that were constantly trying to improve older technology. Nobel being noble always bullet profs their stuff which is great but always makes them slow to catch up. the optimet scanner was a big step forward for them but is slow by today's standards and the gui is abysmal compared to any modern cad software

I think getting their balance sheet in order in the wake of the Danhir deal they scaled back/closed milling centers and the IT part was the next thing in my opinion to cut. I have not heard any of this officially and it's my opinion, but I imagine the beta for the full open products via 3shape will be a big boost for them. If I was a betting man I would look for Exo to be ported to old hardware too.

All speculation here wink wink


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tom Moore]

Have big box milling centers run their course?

 

[rkm rdt]

Have big box milling centers run their course?

not if they can offer botox injections too.

 

[Andrew Priddy]

They were bought out. New company probably realizing that their CAD/CAM solutions weren't all that. My rep told they are starting to work more closely with 3Shape...

well that's a frigging joke... tried doing a split file with Nobel yet? better roll the software back 3 years.
ask your rep why you can't angle the screw channel back 5 Deg with Nobel set up in the order? or why you have 15 validation errors when you try to checkout... the answer (straight from the top) we are working on it... but we probably won't work on split files because they don't do them that often in Europe.

my best response is my action... out of the last 200 abutments I've probably sent them 3 files... a Ti 3.0 and 2 Zir Branemarks. (simply because no one in my corner does them)
BUT the good news? they really are no longer "special"
their pricing isn't competitive, and their service bites ass.

but... as always, your experience may vary. <-- Nobel HQ

 

[JohnWilson]

I agree on some of your points Andrew, I am frustrated as well. We have long partnered with them and had a wonderful relationship and made a bunch of money with them. They are slow to adapt and even the good price point I was getting is outdated by what the market is selling for today. My Procera rep is great I like him a lot I believe his hands are tied right now and time will tell how viable they will be in the market. They need to adapt, sadly that adaptation may mean a lateral shift to selling restorative directly to our clients.

 

[eyeloveteeth]

their new Screw Retained system is really ****ing with us here.....none of our doctors like the short interface height - and now Nobel reps are going around saying we need to use OEM on their stuff.... it's such a nightmare.

 

[JohnWilson]

Reps are under huge pressure to make their nut, ASC is the only thing that is remotely interesting but having to scan on the old scanner is a joke. I can tell you when the beta is up I will be doing more as it gives me something to talk about as well. I have been very tight lipped on this as I make more money milling my own ZI but I hate the emergence I get with cad bases as it relates to the Conical connection. Also having to fully layer a screw retained crown because Nobels Zi looks like sh!t is not enticing either. The only good thing is the non cement retained metal base that accompanies the ASC it makes doing any post deliver modifications simple like the old replace mechanical retention base.

 

[Andrew Priddy]

I hate the emergence I get with cad bases as it relates to the Conical connection.

John

can you expand on this? and, why not design and send the conical' elsewhere?
I guess maybe I just have a bad taste for Nobel and really worked to get away from them...

I don't really see how Nobel can cut out the tech and sell straight to the doctor...
they don't really have the technical support in house... and what I mean is, their process isn't easy and I feel like i'm always refining anything that comes back from them.. I just don't see it happening (or even being a logical move),but maybe I just don't know enough about "what" nobel is fully capable of. there is a huge difference between what's on a screen and what's firing in a porcelain oven.

 

[JohnWilson]

Andrew when I do a nice custom abutment via Nobel the emergence from the table of the fixture is gradual and tapered like the fixture was designed for when you look at a conical connection cad base its more of a 90* angle the transition is not gradual enough. I get FANTASTIC product from nobel but I know how to design abutments (smirk) just joking, actually they replicate my designs which is all I want. High polish and anodize great

Who knows what the future will hold but it seems very realistic to have them sell a COS and start offering simple services, think about their marketing power, they could start a service put cheap COS in and set up labs to service them and then eventually phase us out. Oh yeah they kinda already do this. Not hard to go direct with digital. ...

For the time being charge more than your competition, sell on service and save your money, and retire with happiness Thats my plan so far

 

[Andrew Priddy]

have you tried other milling centers?
I ask, because I send everything I can to Argen... and they Anodize for you.. we don't get much call for it, and aren't set up to do it.
I haven't noticed a design difference with CC (Argen library)
but here is my bigger question... are you designing crowns over abutments at the same time and milling/sending them out to mill? I've tried with Nobel scan library and it's just a nightmare (I don't think it's just me)
I also don't like to scan finished abutments (Fit takes more time, double scanning, handling the case too many times)
I can have everything back within 2 days and out the door in 3 without a hitch if i'm feeling pressured to do so

I also find myself getting more curious about everyone's processes... so if you would, please expand on that

 

[JohnWilson]

I have not used other milling centers as I am loyal to my vendors that make me money. The absolute majority of my TI custom abutments are made for surgeons and not GP's we Scan twice for our own reasons as you know there are no split files for Nobel. We do it this way when we get the abutment back we check the design on the master make any modifications as necessary. We make a duplicate of the abutment in stone as a MASTER die. We scan the case merge in the stone die and make a temp crown and return the case to the surgeon. The surgeon passes on our master die in a clear pillow box with our imprinted information on it to the restoring dr. We have picked up many new clients from this model. I offer a package deal for soft tissue model with analog Ti custom abutment and milled PMMA lab temp. Its a slick marketing plan.

As for my GP's the vast majority of these cases are done as a screw retained restoration.

 

[lcmlabforum]

Andrew when I do a nice custom abutment via Nobel the emergence from the table of the fixture is gradual and tapered like the fixture was designed for when you look at a conical connection cad base its more of a 90* angle the transition is not gradual enough. I get FANTASTIC product from nobel but I know how to design abutments (smirk) just joking, actually they replicate my designs which is all I want. High polish and anodize great

Who knows what the future will hold but it seems very realistic to have them sell a COS and start offering simple services, think about their marketing power, they could start a service put cheap COS in and set up labs to service them and then eventually phase us out. Oh yeah they kinda already do this. Not hard to go direct with digital. ...

For the time being charge more than your competition, sell on service and save your money, and retire with happiness Thats my plan so far

John, I hate that step/ledge at the exact place you do not want a sharp angle also in all their prefab, and from what I have seen,
some custom cases even. Guess what, I have to carefully grind it away after confirming seat, alum oxide stone to smoothen before
rubber wheel to shine again. Pain in the you know what.
However, I suspect the design for the Snappy is such that it gives room for the DDS or the lab to modify/lower the prep/finish
line as needed without bringing the 'shoulder' towards the center and lose esthetics. Especially at the facial when you do not
want a metal collar to show.
May be good rationale for the general population, but again, hate to have that even in their UCLA cast to GoldAdapt, not that
this is a cheap solution.
I feel your pain. Sigh.
LCM

 

[eyeloveteeth]

wow, the nobel rep in our area is now ****ing sh!t talking labs that won't adopt this.... i'm sorry, but we sell ourselves on our aesthetic ability....we have zero control over the opaqueness of the zirconia, we don't even know how good the zirconia is.... we get 5 shades to choose from, and we risk more fractures from adding porcelain/glazing the crap out of this...

 

[keith goldstein]

Nobel's future with their scanner is to use Exocad. As for the ASC we have the screws and the drivers and are waiting on the ti bases for these so you now have an alternative source for this type of solution hopefully very soon. Labs that have to compete against them should go directly to the surgeons with complete solutions of parts, pieces, and turnkey restorations that show comparable if not better quality at more reasonable prices than going the Nobel branded path. We will have all this very soon.

 

[droberts]

well that's a frigging joke... tried doing a split file with Nobel yet? better roll the software back 3 years.
ask your rep why you can't angle the screw channel back 5 Deg with Nobel set up in the order? or why you have 15 validation errors when you try to checkout... the answer (straight from the top) we are working on it... but we probably won't work on split files because they don't do them that often in Europe.

my best response is my action... out of the last 200 abutments I've probably sent them 3 files... a Ti 3.0 and 2 Zir Branemarks. (simply because no one in my corner does them)
BUT the good news? they really are no longer "special"
their pricing isn't competitive, and their service bites ass.

but... as always, your experience may vary. <-- Nobel HQ

Andrew, Did two awhile back of the ASC of Nobel implants, no issues at all.
Note: This is with the new scanner and updated software. Not sure what your problem was?

 

[grantoz]

nobel ASC is really good to work with but the scanner -software is really old world and i have the 2g .Apparently they are going to use exocad for their software in the future rather than sticking with their own because they cant keep up this makes a lot of sense ,we have done 50-100 ASC crowns and abutments very few problems .We have have had a couple that didnt line up properly when we got them back, remade no questions asked we are a beta tester so i think its just a glitch it could have been us also.