How to start with All-on-4s

droberts

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Lets all face it... The more rigid is going to be the strongest The next weakest point is going to fail.
Why would you put a semi flexible bar, then build up with composite ( non-flexible),and not only that.
Place emax crowns? Sure looks pretty...
 
CoolHandLuke

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The next weakest point is going to fail.
that is precisely the problem, and in fact, the entire point.

processed acrylic is really really really really weak.

not a single person would make a titanium structure bigger than a bar - an all-on-4 for example. the results would prove disastrous. titanium teeth would be ugly, weigh a lot, and crush the rest of the mouth to dust.

you want a semi rigid material for all on 4, that is aesthetic, doesnt weigh a ton, and can be layered to. zirconia is what many people go to, however under the strength tests we've performed, an AO4 out of zirconia would outlive the patient. our testing indicated usual mastication force would need to surpass 800Kg to begin to strain it. at least with polishing it can be easy on the opposing.

this is a ludicrous amount of force, however. anyone undergoing that amount of force will see the zirc hold up but it would immediately de-integrate the implants. all of them. at once. without resistance. its too rigid. it absorbs force not at all.

you want a less stable superstructure for all on 4 so that the implants will survive. you want the implants to survive so you can make the prosthetic again, and not cost the patient another year of healing and the cost of 4 more implants. less stable superstructures is safer than strong superstructures.

so the question is now how to get rid of processed acrylic and replace that with a stronger, more shock absorbant material; irrespective of the choice to put it over a bar or use it as a conversion.

resin is your friend. resin is the future.

now, some folks want to get there slowly, and thats acceptable. Trinia is there to help you go slowly. its an inesthetic material that tastes terrible, is fibrous, and isnt repairable. however its less stable than titanium so its uses are already outlined. as stated a few posts ago theres also PEEK for people who are already a bit late to the game.

in that future expect a resin material that has a huge elastic property with a characteristic of being rigid with increasing thickness. i've got a few different kinds of this to crush and figure out the better of the batch, but i am pretty confident to say i know what is the new cream of wheat for 2018. remains to be seen yet though, how doctors and prosthos and denturists respond to the useage of these materials. without a good adoption rate, i might as well be sitting on my hands. zirconia was adopted quickly because of how easy it was to get into; cadcam companies far and wide bought into the development and thats what made the roland machines so hugely successful. what i have, it might be difficult to understand how it processes - from acrylic to cadcam resins. its a bit of a bitter pill to swallow to say you relinquish control of the product to a machine. so i know adoption might be more tricky when explaining its mechanics to those less of the inclination towards the science of materials.

its easy to push juvora peek and say hey here look at this new cool framework ((just please don't think critically about how you add to it, repair it, or modify it once its made))

those who haven't got that kind of inclination, don't know to ask about those kinds of things. so after a hundred cases and 99 failures, they look for something else and probably circle back to CoCr or Ti frames until they get the bad taste of peek out of their mouths.

its not easy to come up with good reasons to buy into new materials until you recognize the shortcomings of the old materials, and if you only ever want to make ti bars and plastic dentures, that's your prerogative. but sooner or later all your colleagues will be asking about your experiences with new kinds of resin and new cadcam machines, and you might feel a bit out of the loop if you still have your blinders on.

i get where you are coming from; a year ago if you asked me what was the best way to make a denture over implants i'd have said a ti bar and a piece of plastic you can lock in with a pin. since then however, as The Dude would say "New Sh1t has come to light, man" and it requires to rethink the process from the ground up. assume nothing. take no proven statistic for granted. question what you "know" and you end up in a different place at the end.
 
kcdt

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why trinia when there is already a well documented, reliable material with no drawbacks?
milled pmma over titanium bar is the 'sweet spot' meaning most reproducable and adaptable with long proof of concept...also easiest to adopt as you move from legacy manufacturing methods to digital.
each other option has a significant drawback or lack of long term study.
I couldn't agree more.
I need a maintainable material. I've yet to hear how some of the fracture/retread issues get done.
 
charles hallam cdt

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All I have to say is periodontal ligament. When we can replicate that all the questions will be answered LaughQuestionmark
 
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the thing is the zi ti bar combo doesnt crush the rest of the mouth to dust, implants dont fail, the opposing dentition doesnt grind away.the main reason is you still get feedback thru the mandible etc.i have been there many times when the bridge has been placed for both full arch implant bridges and normal c&b the patient will bite together a couple of times like a castanet and then say oh good it feels like my real teeth. also remember Zirkonzahn have been doing full arch complete Zi bridges from fixture all the way to occlusal since 2005 .we are talking thousand and thousands of full arches personally ive done hundreds of them.there isnt any class actions no one going around saying i told you so. if there was a way for some one to get a bit of free travel to do a lets 5hit bag zi full arches tour they would have by now.After 12 - 13 years the best they can say is oh peek might be a good idea . sorry "flexible theory" guys you will have to do better than saying this will happen when time has already shown that it doesnt.
 
CoolHandLuke

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the thing is the zi ti bar combo doesnt crush the rest of the mouth to dust, implants dont fail, the opposing dentition doesnt grind away.the main reason is you still get feedback thru the mandible etc.i have been there many times when the bridge has been placed for both full arch implant bridges and normal c&b the patient will bite together a couple of times like a castanet and then say oh good it feels like my real teeth. also remember Zirkonzahn have been doing full arch complete Zi bridges from fixture all the way to occlusal since 2005 .we are talking thousand and thousands of full arches personally ive done hundreds of them.there isnt any class actions no one going around saying i told you so. if there was a way for some one to get a bit of free travel to do a lets 5hit bag zi full arches tour they would have by now.After 12 - 13 years the best they can say is oh peek might be a good idea . sorry "flexible theory" guys you will have to do better than saying this will happen when time has already shown that it doesnt.

let me put it to you this way, the zirconia ao4 can take over 800kg of load before failing, once properly made. strong stuff. stupidly strong stuff. at 800kg though, it only deflects .4mm before shattering like a grenade. not cleaving in half, not cracking, but explosive decompression. boom goes the dynamite.

so, get hit by a car and kiss your internal organs goodbye, as you swallow shards of razor sharp glass.

exactly who is that good for? would be far better to have literally anything that can deflect more than that even if it does take less load.

better for the longevity of the patient. like the change from all steel supertank construction in the 1980's Volvo cars, to super squishy crumple zone cars made of plastic and fiberglass. ultrasafe. have to drive under the a55 end of a truck before you cause yourself serious harm.

resinous materials are the new supersafe option, from superdurable zirconia ao4. thats why its a future material. thats why you should be using it.

edited to add: how unimportant my ramblings are - 7 days ago i bashed juvora peek publicly in this very thread. not a single person has come forward to try to stop me since.
 
charles hallam cdt

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the thing is the zi ti bar combo doesnt crush the rest of the mouth to dust, implants dont fail, the opposing dentition doesnt grind away.the main reason is you still get feedback thru the mandible etc.i have been there many times when the bridge has been placed for both full arch implant bridges and normal c&b the patient will bite together a couple of times like a castanet and then say oh good it feels like my real teeth. also remember Zirkonzahn have been doing full arch complete Zi bridges from fixture all the way to occlusal since 2005 .we are talking thousand and thousands of full arches personally ive done hundreds of them.there isnt any class actions no one going around saying i told you so. if there was a way for some one to get a bit of free travel to do a lets 5hit bag zi full arches tour they would have by now.After 12 - 13 years the best they can say is oh peek might be a good idea . sorry "flexible theory" guys you will have to do better than saying this will happen when time has already shown that it doesnt.
Im not saying full arc zr is a bad thing. If anything implants in themselves is a flawed premise. Why do you think the good lord gave us periodontal ligaments?? Enamel in itself is one of the hardest substance in the human body but without the flexibility of the PL our enamel wouldn’t last. Nothing about the natural oral environment is rigid with no movement.
 
Chalky

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@CoolHandLuke do you know of any techniques that can or incorporate a stress breaker design? could this be a possibility to alleviate rigidity in fixed substructures?... just a thought!
on a side note - thank you for all of your insight and input into this thread! you raise many, many relevant and often ignored issues!
 
charles hallam cdt

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Im not saying full arc zr is a bad thing. If anything implants in themselves is a flawed premise. Why do you think the good lord gave us periodontal ligaments?? Enamel in itself is one of the hardest substance in the human body but without the flexibility of the PL our enamel wouldn’t last. Nothing about the natural oral environment is rigid with no movement.
Sorry to just troll in on this thread but I’m getting ready to do my first fixed all on 4 and trying to figure out best rout and material.
 
CoolHandLuke

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@CoolHandLuke do you know of any techniques that can or incorporate a stress breaker design? could this be a possibility to alleviate rigidity in fixed substructures?... just a thought!
on a side note - thank you for all of your insight and input into this thread! you raise many, many relevant and often ignored issues!
a stressbreaker in grouped implants has often been thought to be a poor idea, however as resin materials develop, its becoming increasingly popular to use a kind of "soft" interface, like a coping on an MUA for example, to alleviate pressure on the implant and let it go passively. we've tried a variety of resins to this purpose, with success yet to be determined.
 
Chalky

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a stressbreaker in grouped implants has often been thought to be a poor idea, however as resin materials develop, its becoming increasingly popular to use a kind of "soft" interface, like a coping on an MUA for example, to alleviate pressure on the implant and let it go passively. we've tried a variety of resins to this purpose, with success yet to be determined.
I have a removable background, and have made many acrylic hybrid all on 4/6 bridges in the past. these were always intended to be temporary bridges, however given their lower cost seemed to be a popular option. fractures were common in all acrylic and stress breaking these was an idea I had years ago - but my boss at the time only heard 'more work' whenever i'd discuss it, but I did think that issues existed that needed to be resolved. I essentially have had no practical experience with Zi full arch or substructures so I have no gauge of experience to go by in that regard. stress breaking a titanium base was also a thought (with acrylic),but nothing eventuated from that, I hadn't seen anything along these lines and wondered if it had been explored and deemed not a great option. I believe (possibly incorrectly) that even with implants in place the bone still continues to resorb and this would surely change the position of implants over time.
please note I have never researched this or studied it at length so I accept that this is possibly absolutely not the case!
 
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if you want stress break think where does the mandible flex .right down the middle of the mandible along the suture line good luck putting a stress breaker there. i tried it once with breakers behind the canines it effectively takes away the tripod effect as you have straight lines of implants. long story short remade the bridge as patient didnt like the feel and the way it got crap in the breakers replaced it with all zi 1 piece no metal interfaces been there for 8 years no problems.
 
Chalky

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@grantoz thanks mate! nice knowing that it has been tried... even if it wasn't a great option. out of interest have you used any of these flexible (or less rigid) substructures like peak or these resins mentioned above?
 
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not as a screw retained bridge as an overdenture frame over a bar yes it works well.
 
KTR

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Ok so basically, we'd like to start offering all on 4 dentures. We do a lot of single crown implants (we typically send the case to dentsply for custom abutments),but we have the capability already to do everything in house. We want to mill Trinia bars and fabricate a denture over it.

Where do we even begin with this endeavor? Does anyone offer any kind of training for this? What CAD software is best? We currently have Dental Wings, but are interested in switching to either Exo or 3Shape. We have a 3D printer and a wet mill on the way.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Bryce, could you be more specific? I would be happy to help if i can but need to know if your going to assist a doctor or receive an impression and start the case. We
have done zr and pmma. Do you just need to know how to start with exocad?
 

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