E.max Lateral over Zir Abutment. Crackline help....

[Alistar]

Any ceramic experts have a secret to creating crack-liness?

This is a E.max press over Straumann custom zirconia abutment.

I already pressed a core in A2LT and did 2 staining fires on the core with a 50/50ish mix of GC Luster Paste D shader and Pink Inciso. The core looked really good. (Sorry no pics)

I've tried doing the thin razor cut in my build and flowing a slurry of B1 deep dentin in it...but I think my porc was too dry and the slurry would not flow in deep enough..so it just looked like a blob of dentin..anyway I'm looking for help if the pros have advice.

Here is my situation.

<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/_CAqXG9q0PybFM8fiE5mYA?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dPpHCCFAx_M/TrBwCccMwJI/AAAAAAAAAVI/A1-xTdOacYE/s640/Image.jpg" height="480" width="640" /></a>

 

[TheLabGuy]

My technique takes another couple firings, but what I do is build your crown like normal. Then when you're done finishing it, I cut a line in it using my highspeed using a 34 inverted cone, holding it on a slant. Don't cut a perfect straight line unless others are perfectly straight, but cut it deep. Then use whatever stain (white, crackliner, brown, etc...) you would normally use during glazing but put that in your crack - then fire. Once fired, then you need to make your stain line thinner, so under the scope use your 34 inverted cone again and very carefully start from the outside and work to make your crack line very thin, then add your dentin/incisal and fire. Glaze and you're done. That's the best way I've found, the wet technique is another way but I end up accidentally grinding it off during finishing sometimes. Would love to hear other techniques, great question.

 

[Alistar]

My technique takes another couple firings, but what I do is build your crown like normal. Then when you're done finishing it, I cut a line in it using my highspeed using a 34 inverted cone, holding it on a slant. Don't cut a perfect straight line unless others are perfectly straight, but cut it deep. Then use whatever stain (white, crackliner, brown, etc...) you would normally use during glazing but put that in your crack - then fire. Once fired, then you need to make your stain line thinner, so under the scope use your 34 inverted cone again and very carefully start from the outside and work to make your crack line very thin, then add your dentin/incisal and fire. Glaze and you're done. That's the best way I've found, the wet technique is another way but I end up accidentally grinding it off during finishing sometimes. Would love to hear other techniques, great question.

Thanks Rob, I was thinking about doing the same thing with a really thin disk or a 557 high speed.

I've tried the wet technique about half a dozen times and it has never worked for me, so i always end up grinding it all off and re layering....this another one of those times. Thankfully the layering on this thing only takes a minute.

 

[Tom Moore]

I did them with a cut in the green porcelain so I could match the angeling of the cracks in the natural teeth. I used Willi Geller crack liner and stained it the color I needed with Inova internal stains. Just a cut back in the enamel build with a blade then brushed on a very thin layer of crack liner on the cut and covered with enamel. It looked very real and it was almost impossible to grind it out.

I used a bur called a scriber to outline cracks. Do they still make that bur. It was a very fine point. I also ran a 701 FG against a fine diamond until there was only a small star on the end and it worked reasonably well to do a last minute crack line.

 

[Alistar]

I did them with a cut in the green porcelain so I could match the angeling of the cracks in the natural teeth. I used Willi Geller crack liner and stained it the color I needed with Inova internal stains. Just a cut back in the enamel build with a blade then brushed on a very thin layer of crack liner on the cut and covered with enamel. It looked very real and it was almost impossible to grind it out.

I used a bur called a scriber to outline cracks. Do they still make that bur. It was a very fine point. I also ran a 701 FG against a fine diamond until there was only a small star on the end and it worked reasonably well to do a last minute crack line.

Thanks Gramps, I didn't know you had porcelain skills. I wish I had the skills to do it in the wet porcelain. I've got a couple cores laying around that could practice this on.

What size blade did you use to cut in the crack? And how wide did you make it? I'm trying to make mine ultra small, because i've made the cut too wide before using a normal porcelain carver and it ends up looking like crap. So now I've tried using a razor blade out of a disposable razor, and that's about as thin as you can get.(guessing .01mm).

Thanks

 

[rkm rdt]

I use water instead of glaze liquid .

 

[Alistar]

I use water instead of glaze liquid .

I'll try that. Thanks RMK

 

[Alistar]

Rob, I used your technique and it worked good. I still have to finish it down and see what the final look is. I'll post pics if i have time. I'll leaving for Boston tomorrow, so I'm in rush mode atm.

Thanks for all the suggestions thus far.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Rob, I used your technique and it worked good. I still have to finish it down and see what the final look is. I'll post pics if i have time. I'll leaving for Boston tomorrow, so I'm in rush mode atm.

Thanks for all the suggestions thus far.

Not a problem, that technique works good for the darker crack lines, it's a little tougher to do with the white check lines. I might try the razor blade in the wet technique for the next white lined one I have. Glad it helped!!!

 

[paulg100]

if you want an ultra thin blade get a tanaka one

Flash Intro Page

i use that for seperating the contacts of me wax ups but its meant for porcelain really.

 

[Tom Moore]

Thanks Gramps, I didn't know you had porcelain skills. I wish I had the skills to do it in the wet porcelain. I've got a couple cores laying around that could practice this on.

What size blade did you use to cut in the crack? And how wide did you make it? I'm trying to make mine ultra small, because I've made the cut too wide before using a normal porcelain carver and it ends up looking like crap. So now I've tried using a razor blade out of a disposable razor, and that's about as thin as you can get.(guessing .01mm).

Thanks

I used a segmented enamel build up with the dry stack technique. I would start on the mesial of the crown and when I came to a place I wanted a crack line I would used a section of blade I removed from a throwaway razor glued to a sea urchin spine. I would cut the line angle I wanted all the way into the body build and lightly slurry the crack liner on only on that mesial surface. Then you layered another segmental enamel layer on that and just worked your way to the distal doing this as many times as necessary. This is IMO the best way to do a internal crack live that looks real even up very close.

I learned this from Sang Jun. One of the best ceramists I've ever know.

This could be done on fired ceramic by cutting a wide V notch and painting the crack liner on only on side of the V and then filling with the appropriate enamel.

Aside from my journeyman at best ceramic skills I'm also I'm not very handsome but the women still find me handy.

 

[Alistar]

I used a segmented enamel build up with the dry stack technique. I would start on the mesial of the crown and when I came to a place I wanted a crack line I would used a section of blade I removed from a throwaway razor glued to a sea urchin spine. I would cut the line angle I wanted all the way into the body build and lightly slurry the crack liner on only on that mesial surface. Then you layered another segmental enamel layer on that and just worked your way to the distal doing this as many times as necessary. This is IMO the best way to do a internal crack live that looks real even up very close.

I learned this from Sang Jun. One of the best ceramists I've ever know.

This could be done on fired ceramic by cutting a wide V notch and painting the crack liner on only on side of the V and then filling with the appropriate enamel.

Aside from my journeyman at best ceramic skills I'm also I'm not very handsome but the women still find me handy.

Ah! I should have tried that!

I did the V notch technique. It turned out ok, but i think the line is a bit to prominent due to the angle and depth in which i cut it.

I like the Red&Green quote.

Red Green ~ Toilet Power.flv - YouTube

 

[Tom Moore]

I used to get in trouble for practicing crack lines on the distal lingual of upper molars.

I loved doing that sort of stuff but dentist really don't want it if they had to pay extra for it and patients where usually not to happy with imaginary cracks in their new very expensive teeth.

e the artist in me want to cut my ear off.

I decided that Darth was my real dad and I went into business on the dark side. Darkness is not that bad because it pays enough to keep all the lights on.

 

[NicelyMKV]

Never tried it but I saw a ceramist take a thin blade with grey on one side and a white/cream on the other. He lightly inserted the long edge of the blade into the facial of the wet ceramic. After he removed it he gently pushed the thin cut tightly together with a brush. Looked very cool when he was finished. You could do the same minus the grey. Just push the crack line gently back together.

 

[Alistar]

I used to get in trouble for practicing crack lines on the distal lingual of upper molars.

I loved doing that sort of stuff but dentist really don't want it if they had to pay extra for it and patients where usually not to happy with imaginary cracks in their new very expensive teeth.

e the artist in me want to cut my ear off.

I decided that Darth was my real dad and I went into business on the dark side. Darkness is not that bad because it pays enough to keep all the lights on.

I like my ears attached and my lights on too Tom. Thankfully I survived my identity crisis as well...which side I end up on remains to be told.

 

[Alistar]

Never tried it but I saw a ceramist take a thin blade with grey on one side and a white/cream on the other. He lightly inserted the long edge of the blade into the facial of the wet ceramic. After he removed it he gently pushed the thin cut tightly together with a brush. Looked very cool when he was finished. You could do the same minus the grey. Just push the crack line gently back together.

I'm going to try this on the distal lingual of my next molar.

 

[Tom Moore]

Never tried it but I saw a ceramist take a thin blade with grey on one side and a white/cream on the other. He lightly inserted the long edge of the blade into the facial of the wet ceramic. After he removed it he gently pushed the thin cut tightly together with a brush. Looked very cool when he was finished. You could do the same minus the grey. Just push the crack line gently back together.

I've done something similar to this on anteriors where the insisal was worn to the dentin and the teeth that usually had a yellow-orange stain that was deep in the tooth. I would cut into the insisal in the center as deep as the picture showed and wiggle it open a little. Then put the stain on the blade insert it into the crack and push the cut closed as I removed it so it would stay in place. If you want to get all artsy you can use a stain brush and paint a pattern with internal stains on both sides of the blade.

Did I say I hate single centrals. Pay thousands of dollar to learn this kind stuff just so you can match that single central on the third or forth try.

 

[amadent]

Did I say I hate single centrals. Pay thousands of dollar to learn this kind stuff just so you can match that single central on the third or forth try.


from your mouth to gods ears

 

[subrisi]

I do it like Tom Moore and using Creation on PFM's it is easy to do with innova crackliner. BUT!!!! what do you do on EMAX????
I tried the white stain, it disappears, I got the empress crackliner, it disappears. The stuff is not opaque enough. I do all the work and after the bake it is barely visible. I am soo frustrated because I can't fgure out a good way of doing this.

 

[paulg100]

use MM light if your not finding the other powders intense enough.

The MM's are the most intense light blockers in the kit.