Cement for ti-base to zirconia?

Car 54

Car 54

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some people also feel that giving this information out makes them lose competitive edge; i however know exactly how hard it is to convey one tiny fact to a paying customer, let alone how well that fact gets absorbed by said customer.

i could give away the farm, the person i gave it to would be asking me why food grows out of the ground instead of from the trees.

go ahead and tell people these little things, its absolutely going to be taken 100% the way you did not imagine, and you'll just be left with more questions.
In a PM with one of the prominent members here, we talked about this issue about 4 years ago, and how much should we really disclose on the forum, especially since there are a lot of lurkers that only take, and don't give. He mentioned that at times, he would even put out a bit of misinformation, a little red herring every now and then just, well, maybe to mess with their minds a bit. :)

Other than that, I'm moving on Vroam
 
CoolHandLuke

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its personal experience that leads me to say you can write it down, you can tell em over the phone, you can make a whole youtube channel, but many people reading, hearing or watching you don't understand but half of what you say because the other half of your message gets garbled up in

1. how they want to respond
2. something you said made them think of something else and now they are lost in the weeds
3. they are too self absorbed to be absorbing your subject matter

i know, i've explained concepts to people long enough to remember when i was young and devoted to spreading knowledge out there, believing people were thirsty for it. writing all kind of long posts, huge emails, hours long phone calls...

nope.

you can write a book, most people won't get past page 5.

you know how i know?

that movie Dune, used to be a very popular book. popular with literary critics? not so much. right wing fundies looking for some sci-fi where the protagonist good guy is actually a nasty old conservative tyrant just a shade less than actively genocidal? surprisingly popular.

aint nobody read far enough along to see the downward spiral of Paul. then the movies came out and every subsequent film has glossed over the ending. every. time.

so go ahead. cast your bread upon the waters. the fish don't eat bread anyway. you are only wasting time and breath. the words fall on deaf ears.

Al could come back and post a 5 hour video of his GC lisi technique, only about 3 people out of the 300 people who watched his video would get it, replicate it, and do something worthwhile. the rest wouldn't get it or muddle it so badly it'd be unrecognizable.
 
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grantoz

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im just trying to change our mindset a bit its something myself and kimba have been working on, our wives who have worked in different industries to us really think we are stupid the way we give out free stuff ie remakes discounts etc i know i will get someone on here saying they dont but who are they kidding, do i think telling some one what cement to use is going to bring down the lab no i dont. But even the great willi gellar who is very generous with his time charged for the info he gave out through this he gained more respect and became a total legend. I want all techos to be total legends as much as possible anyway .So next time your asked for a free remake a bit of help etc think of a loved one you know outside of the industry and ask what would they do .
 
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tuyere

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What im implying is we cough up info straight away without finding out who is asking the question, your responses reinforce my point. we all try and be helpful and god bless us we are our own worst enemy. so please be a bit smarter i get dentists ringing me up all the time what cement do you glue your abutments with? how do you polish your crowns after adjustments? all pretending to be your best mate usually but not always they have their own mill in house or they are thinking of it or they have found someone cheaper and so on and so on. If you had another lab down the street ring you up would you be so forthcoming in your answers? So at least treat the dentist who come on this site the same way and the only to find out is to ask questions first.

im just trying to change our mindset a bit its something myself and kimba have been working on, our wives who have worked in different industries to us really think we are stupid the way we give out free stuff ie remakes discounts etc i know i will get someone on here saying they dont but who are they kidding, do i think telling some one what cement to use is going to bring down the lab no i dont. But even the great willi gellar who is very generous with his time charged for the info he gave out through this he gained more respect and became a total legend. I want all techos to be total legends as much as possible anyway .So next time your asked for a free remake a bit of help etc think of a loved one you know outside of the industry and ask what would they do .
Now, I mean no disrespect at all to you personally with this, but...

No. I do not accept this, and I will not be playing ball, not now or ever, in this regard or any other. Knowledge wants to be free. Knowledge *should* be free. It is both a natural principle, like gravity or thermodynamics, as well as a moral imperative. Trying to gatekeep fundamental trades information like this is like trying to bail the ocean out with your cupped hands. It's doubly-foolish on a publicly-viewable forum. If you can't read it here, you can read it somewhere else, or hear it from one of the many professionals who are eager to share their experience.
More seriously, this kind of attitude is corrosive to any trade. It poisons it. It makes it more difficult for people to grow as professionals, it makes it harder for people to enter the field, and it makes the work being done worse.
In your second post, you conflate labour, i.e. remakes, with knowledge. There is a very big difference between the two, and I don't buy that Willi charging for his trade secrets is what made him a legend. We only get so much time on this earth, and charging people for taking up a sliver of that is fair game, but knowledge is boundless and can be multiplied a thousandfold through venues like this very forum. I'd be a lot less knowledgeable without this place as a resource, and attempts at gatekeeping out people who aren't REAL dental techs would have excluded me.
I don't buy the hostility and oppositional behaviour towards dentists I see here. We should be working with them to both do better work together, not keeping them out and pretending that this will do anything of substance to improve our professional prospects in the years to come. If you want to save the trade, change our global economic system and national trade policies, because that's what it will take- keeping some trade secrets harder for a handful of other professionals to learn is a drop in the ocean, it's a rounding error. It changes nothing and helps nobody. All it does it make someone else's job harder, when it would have cost you nothing to make it easier- you're already spending the time to browse and post here, after all.
 
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tuyere

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Let me tell you a story that illustrates my point. Before discovering the human tooth, I used to work as an artisanal metalsmith. Specifically, I was a blacksmith. Still am, it never leaves you, but it was my daily job. Blacksmithing has always been a trade dominated by extreme secrecy- the guilds hoarded their tricks and techniques, and master smiths jealously accumulated their personal insights and innovations, to keep other smiths from profiting off of their experience.
So what has that tradition done for blacksmithing in the present day? It guaranteed that most of the tradition itself has been lost, after industrialization and cheaper manufacturing processes took their inevitable toll on the country smithy. There are forging and smelting techniques that we literally cannot reproduce any more, not with all our technology and empiricism. They died with their masters, who cannot profit from them from the grave, and everybody else pays for it afterwards. A lot of people put a lot of time and effort into trying to reproduce a particular alloy or forge-welding pattern or decorative flourish, just so we can have that bit of knowledge again. And I say 'we', not 'they'- because the secrecy of the trade is largely gone, in the era of what we call 'revival blacksmithing'. Now that there are no guilds or old masters to apprentice under, the knowledge -must- be free, for there to be any practicing of the trade at all. Smiths eagerly share their experience and their little time-saving tricks or neat techniques, even if they do it for a living, because otherwise the trade will die a second death, and it's worth keeping alive.

I think it would be a tremendous shame for the wealth of knowledge available from the old-hand dental tech masters to die out and be lost to the world because those masters withheld their life's experience in the hope that it would turn the tide against digital dentistry, 3D printing and Chinese-milled zirconia, you know what I mean?
 
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grantoz

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tuyere i see the similarities and differences in the 2 jobs just like the old smiths im guessing no one wanted to pay for the secrets, they[smiths] valued their own skills just like gellar does but they didnt want to give their secrets away for free. im guessing that apple isnt big on sharing everything either again im not saying dont share but be careful who you share with as i believe it should be a 2 way street which most dentists dont do on this site. its just take what you can so they can decrease business with labs[ our colleges] .You do what ever you want no one can or wants too stop you, but im a little more careful who i share with, ive trained many techs over the years i train them they work for me thats fair and reasonable.
Im just trying to get people to think in a different way and for them to see many are selling themselves short myself included. this is my view on things after 41 years in the job i was just like everyone else thinking that the dentist will respect and appreciate the help we provided, the free remakes the free advice, the late nights. the rush jobs all of this might help with them staying loyal to your business of the 160 clients i have probably 10 appreciate and get it .I now treat my business very much like any other company would in other industries even the implant companies dont hand out free stuff much now for all the same reasons and after 41 years i now enjoy the job more we make better crowns and the business is more profitable thats the advice im sharing for free to my colleges.
 
Sda36

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Howdy! Hope everybody is having a great week. I have been using E.max Abutment Solutions Cem kit to cement our abutments to zirconia restorations but was wondering what everyone else prefers to use? Also, if anybody could recommend a trial cement used for veneers? Preferably with a longer working time. Thanks!
Just a tid but of info here, RelyX contains amines as a photo initiator which causes a greying effect post cementation. Can cause concern on lighter shades after 6 mo recall. " Why does my new tooth look greyer now" Have experienced this with A1 and lighter shades, especially BL shades with minimal thickness. I recommend Bisco Duo Link Milky White for our clients to avoid this problem and support the value in our restorations.
My experience over the years is that 3M is Very powerful with their marketing but should Stick to post it notes when it comes to dental adhesives.(not to mention their IOS caput) They try and sell RelyX to every office in existence.
I have no relationship with Bisco other than enjoying and trusting their product.
 
ItsKeeN

ItsKeeN

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Well this sparked more conversation than I thought it would. Thank you all for your insight and time!
 
CoolHandLuke

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tuyere i see the similarities and differences in the 2 jobs just like the old smiths im guessing no one wanted to pay for the secrets, they[smiths] valued their own skills just like gellar does but they didnt want to give their secrets away for free. im guessing that apple isnt big on sharing everything either again im not saying dont share but be careful who you share with as i believe it should be a 2 way street which most dentists dont do on this site. its just take what you can so they can decrease business with labs[ our colleges] .You do what ever you want no one can or wants too stop you, but im a little more careful who i share with, ive trained many techs over the years i train them they work for me thats fair and reasonable.
Im just trying to get people to think in a different way and for them to see many are selling themselves short myself included. this is my view on things after 41 years in the job i was just like everyone else thinking that the dentist will respect and appreciate the help we provided, the free remakes the free advice, the late nights. the rush jobs all of this might help with them staying loyal to your business of the 160 clients i have probably 10 appreciate and get it .I now treat my business very much like any other company would in other industries even the implant companies dont hand out free stuff much now for all the same reasons and after 41 years i now enjoy the job more we make better crowns and the business is more profitable thats the advice im sharing for free to my colleges.
trade secrets are one thing, you can't patent a layering or staining technique tho.

if you have a patentable idea or product, keep your secrets. otherwise you just have specialized knowledge that will die with you if it isn't shared. you know, like blacksmiths.
 
ItsKeeN

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When I started using ti-bases, I had a similar question and didn't find answers that I was looking for. I did the next best thing. I milled six different abutments and cemented them to ti-bases. Two by applying cement to both. Two applying cement to ti-base only. Two applying cement to crown only. the one with the cement applied to both had some small voids on in the cement when I recovered them with most voids appearing near the cervical area. The cement to the crown cemented fine but the excess cement was in the chimney only a small void on one of the two near the cervical. The one that I applied to ti-base had a small void near the occlusal end on both, but no cement in the access hole. Although this was a small sample size, I have confirmed this over the years with the ones I have had to recover to add or reglaze. I apply to ti-base exclusively. The extra cement is expressed out the cervical with little chance of voids and if the voids occur they are near the occlusal/incisal end.
Awesome! Thanks for your time!
 
JKraver

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This field has had quite the history of not sharing techniques and skills with the next generation.
 
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CWilliams

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Thats what is included in my kit we've been using and it works for sure. Whats the best way to cement cleanly? Im always left with cement filling the screw channel and i have to use 4-5 microbrushes to get rid of it. Then when i use compressed air or steam to clean up, I sometimes blow the abutment back out and gotta restart :/
Panavia V5, mainly the universal A2 shade.

As for the screw channel, I place a cotton pellet in the ti base/ abutment chimney, place cement, light cure, clean attachment area with blade (just flicks right off) then poke the cotton pellet out towards the opening on crown surface w/ an old bent explorer and call it a day. Never had an issue with cement in the channel.
 
ItsKeeN

ItsKeeN

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Panavia V5, mainly the universal A2 shade.

As for the screw channel, I place a cotton pellet in the ti base/ abutment chimney, place cement, light cure, clean attachment area with blade (just flicks right off) then poke the cotton pellet out towards the opening on crown surface w/ an old bent explorer and call it a day. Never had an issue with cement in the channel.
Awesome, great advice. I'll definitely start doing that :) TY
 
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