Bulletproof milling machine hard materials EU

[rookiee]

Hi guys!

Looking into future second milling machine which must be capable of milling CoCr and Ti...we are not milling center but few things on weeks basis must be able to normaly mill. Problem is our location regarding options or support. So far I have one Roland in lab and must say, maybe it's not fastest or best but it serves us on daily basis for almost 5y, still first spindle, did like 3,4 calibrations in this time and problems? Two door sensors and one baring causing changer not able to push holder into place. All that I could repair by myself for a few EUR. Two broken burs due to strategy mistake by reseller or by region developers. Otherwise, day and night, it's like perpetum mobile. Knock knock. And would want similar for next investment. Paying ten thousand EUR is my demand that that thing works. I know, hard material, coolant, more maintaince.

So what are options? PM7 looks toyish and 2much Ivoclar. Imes 350 pro+ is option but seen so much **** from other models in their lineup that I'm years really sceptical regarding their machines...Santa Barbara is too new to spend money on...Cimt Pi5 over budget...What else is there in Europe WITH support and lack of headaches?

 

[AnAppleaDay]

PM7 is usually pretty strong. They had some issues at the beginning, but I think mostly resolved nowadays.
Amann Girrbach make reliable mills. Motion 3 or Matik are good and reliable. Support will vary upon your reseller.
Some people swear by the Arum mills, but I haven't used myself or heard firsthand accounts other than online.
ZirkonZahn, while expensive, has the complete solution and really good support and if you like Exocad, the Modellier software is really good.

 

[tuyere]

PM7s are excellent machines and are unusually user-friendly, as far as these things go.
Imes350+ is also an excellent machine, and definitely a better choice for metal milling specifically, but they call for more machining + CNC milling understanding from the end user. Ours is running well now but it took a while to get there, between calibrations of the machine and premill fixtures.

All that said- metal milling is a whole different ballgame from zirconia. You will dull your tooling far faster than with zirc, get far more tool breakages and (with an imescore) more spindle crashes and disc changer collisions, it's hard to avoid if you're milling something as tough as CoCr. We probably change at least one tool a day on our Imescore, some of our tools only have an 8-hour lifespan to ensure the finish and final dimensions are good.

 

[rookiee]

PM7s are excellent machines and are unusually user-friendly, as far as these things go.
Imes350+ is also an excellent machine, and definitely a better choice for metal milling specifically, but they call for more machining + CNC milling understanding from the end user. Ours is running well now but it took a while to get there, between calibrations of the machine and premill fixtures.

All that said- metal milling is a whole different ballgame from zirconia. You will dull your tooling far faster than with zirc, get far more tool breakages and (with an imescore) more spindle crashes and disc changer collisions, it's hard to avoid if you're milling something as tough as CoCr. We probably change at least one tool a day on our Imescore, some of our tools only have an 8-hour lifespan to ensure the finish and final dimensions are good.

Ok but this part I just don't get...why buying a 70, 80 or 100k machine where manufacturer or dealer gives you machine, CAM and strategies, why would you break tools? I can understand tool quality etc but not breaking with usual stuff. I know quite few hicups with Imes (different models 150, 250, 350) from different people that knowing that I would never buy Imes in my life. Like why would you have disc changer collinsion while milling metal?

 

[tuyere]

Ok but this part I just don't get...why buying a 70, 80 or 100k machine where manufacturer or dealer gives you machine, CAM and strategies, why would you break tools? I can understand tool quality etc but not breaking with usual stuff. I know quite few hicups with Imes (different models 150, 250, 350) from different people that knowing that I would never buy Imes in my life. Like why would you have disc changer collinsion while milling metal?

You break tools when milling metal no matter how much you pay. You can't buy your way out of that. This is normal for metal machining in general. Zirconia is uniquely very forgiving and isn't really comparable to other materials re: milling. You can minimize breakages if you know what you're doing and have your strategies really dialled in and know your machine well, but it just happens, especially at first. The forces involved are very high and you're pushing the tool very hard compared to zirconia, it's easy for one little factor to tip a tool over into failure mode, and you can't always control all of those factors even if you're on the ball. You will not understand the process at an expert level for quite some time, machining is very nuanced re: the interplay of feed per tooth, depth of cut, material surface speed, etc etc- and then you can introduce all sorts of problems at the CAM/nesting stage as well. People go to trade school to learn how to do it for a reason.
Re: collisions, that's because the imes machines don't have training wheels on. The machine will allow you to do stupid **** that causes problems if you choose to. This is more or less normal for industrial CNC, they assume you know what you're doing. Which can be a dodgy assumption for dental, for sure. That's what I mean about understanding the process and the machine- used properly you won't have these problems, but you're going to screw stuff up at first, that's normal. You will nest stuff badly and not use enough supports, or swap a 3mm for a 2mm tool and trash both, mix up discs in your library and mill a crown through an already-milled bridge, whatever, it's part of the learning process, you try not to do it again, and gradually you master the process and can consistently get the results you want with a minimum of waste. But you will probably break a bunch of tools to get there. It's unavoidable.

 

[tuyere]

You'll break tools with a PM7 too, even though it's got those training wheels on. We broke a ton of tools, and a ton of blocks, when we started out with emax grinding, we had to sit down with ivoclar support and go through the CAM process for them to identify all the mistakes we were making in setting parts up. It's very easy to set up parts that look good in the CAM preview but will almost always break the tool because of some trick of insertion angle or the angle created between support and crown side-wall. Or your design can produce geometries that can't be manufactured without giving you a ton of grief! you can have problems before you even turn the mill on! That's what I mean about CNC milling/grinding in general being very reliant on the user's technique and expertise, every CAM suite under the sun will happily let you set up parts that are totally non-manufacturable with your machine, you gotta know how to avoid that.

I don't know your setup, but if you want to mill metal, it behooves you to have a CNC machinist (and not a dental tech, if you understand my meaning) running your parts, or you'll never really have a handle on the process and will have a lot of trouble dealing with issues as they emerge. If you're interested in becoming that person yourself, fantastic, it's a lot of work but it's rewarding and is a great transferrable skill. A lot of people will want to hire that person instead, which is also fine. Just try to avoid the trap of throwing a completely-untrained dental tech at a metal milling setup and then being surprised when you get poor results.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

bulletproof

lmao

no. you don't buy bulletproof machines, CAM, or tooling. you will only ever have as much bulletproofing as your CAM engineering team can provide. if you are not the engineer but rather the user, you will always find a way to break tools, break pucks, break spindles...

its very easy actually.

i'll tell you the secret: you don't ever clean the machine, you design crazy parts, and you put the wrong tools in the spots, dont run the part with coolant, and let the air get moist.

in 6 minutes you can damage enough of the machine to need to pay another 100k

lmao bulletproof.

you europeans. you are very funny!

its bulletproof when you arent using it. 98% of the time. because hey i make mistakes too.

 

[Car 54]

lol...love it

i'll tell you the secret: you don't ever clean the machine, you design crazy parts, and you put the wrong tools in the spots, dont run the part with coolant, and let the air get moist.

in 6 minutes you can damage enough of the machine to need to pay another 100k

 

[rookiee]

bulletproof

lmao

no. you don't buy bulletproof machines, CAM, or tooling. you will only ever have as much bulletproofing as your CAM engineering team can provide. if you are not the engineer but rather the user, you will always find a way to break tools, break pucks, break spindles...

its very easy actually.

i'll tell you the secret: you don't ever clean the machine, you design crazy parts, and you put the wrong tools in the spots, dont run the part with coolant, and let the air get moist.

in 6 minutes you can damage enough of the machine to need to pay another 100k

lmao bulletproof.

you europeans. you are very funny!

its bulletproof when you arent using it. 98% of the time. because hey i make mistakes too.

Oh man, you americans...

I guess no one understood what I was asking. All the considerations above is something I'm aware. We mill inhouse for last 7,8 years with 0 broken burs, 0 broken spindles, feather margins milled perfectly...So I think we know a bit what and how it should be done. Yes we don't mill metal but why should this be something completely different? I need a machine and a provider with great support and strategies tested and that's it. That I was asking about. What were our options in EU, yes EU, continent forgotten from god and hell. And if I pay 100k I at least expect thing to be milled and not broke a bur and f*ed up spindle etc...And I think it's a legit request, don't you?

 

[grantoz]

zirkonzahn m2 is great. you will have more problems milling metal it just harder on everything no matter which mill you buy. i have 2 zz mills that mill metal and they mill very well.

 

[cadfan]

Oh man, you americans...

I guess no one understood what I was asking. All the considerations above is something I'm aware. We mill inhouse for last 7,8 years with 0 broken burs, 0 broken spindles, feather margins milled perfectly...So I think we know a bit what and how it should be done. Yes we don't mill metal but why should this be something completely different? I need a machine and a provider with great support and strategies tested and that's it. That I was asking about. What were our options in EU, yes EU, continent forgotten from god and hell. And if I pay 100k I at least expect thing to be milled and not broke a bur and f*ed up spindle etc...And I think it's a legit request, don't you?

EU is big depends to where you are located !! P 7 is auround 65-70 K is that your budget ??

 

[CoolHandLuke]

Oh man, you americans...

I guess no one understood what I was asking. All the considerations above is something I'm aware. We mill inhouse for last 7,8 years with 0 broken burs, 0 broken spindles, feather margins milled perfectly...So I think we know a bit what and how it should be done. Yes we don't mill metal but why should this be something completely different? I need a machine and a provider with great support and strategies tested and that's it. That I was asking about. What were our options in EU, yes EU, continent forgotten from god and hell. And if I pay 100k I at least expect thing to be milled and not broke a bur and f*ed up spindle etc...And I think it's a legit request, don't you?

no, is absolutely not a legit request.

you cannot compare milling metal to milling zirconia.

your experience with single crowns does not compare with implants.

there are 3 pieces of physics that you do not experience with zirconia that you totally exprience with metal milling:

1. work hardening. a piece of metal when it is cut can heat up enough that it reaches a Hardening point. this hardening does two things: A. it is much more difficult to cut in this specific section of material B it is now more Brittle. so when you use a pre-calculated feed and speed for the spindle and you create a hard spot, then go back over the same spot to finish the part your tool edge can't create correct slicing this leads to 2.

2. tool damage. with zirconia the tooling is diamond coated so that erosion and edge rolling does not occur. diamonds however, are not good for cutting metal. it does not create a clean cut and due to the tearing it damages the tooling faster.

3. neither of these problems are unique to Dental machines. you will experience this in every machine ever made. this is every metal, equally in aluminum, titanium and steel.

bulletproof is impossible.

i tell customers consistently to not track tool life on hours, instead track life on visible damage; use loupes or a scope to inspect the tool after every project, and hen you start to see edge damage or hear the sound of a bad cut to stop and retool the mill. some customers are receptive, others dont like this information and they call me to tell me they broke tools and i can only show them that had they inspected their tool they would have seen worn out or damaged tooling that will lead to bad units or broken tools if left unchecked.


people want a nice number of how many units you can make in metal before the tool is bad, or how many hours can the tool cut before its bad.

not an easy number to tell, due to how differently the tool is treated in each circumstance; for crowns you have short paths with a lot of quick spiral motions, with bridges or bars, a lot of long with cuts. these create different issues when cutting metal and they are sources of different sorts of wear.

you say you milled zirconia for 8 years with no broken tools or spindles, i can believe that. easy to do. then you say you know what you are doing, i have trouble believing that because you are not a CAM engineer, you are an operator, you know how to push the button to calculate, you dont have any idea what happens behind the scenes, and then you know how to press start on the mill. congratulations, you are a basic mill operator.

you want to cut metal but you dont want to be responsible for damaged tools or broken spindles. you are ridiculous.

 

[desertfox384]

 

[sirmorty]

"We mill inhouse for last 7,8 years with 0 broken burs, 0 broken spindles, feather margins milled perfectly..."

Sorry but I don't believe you.

 

[tuyere]

Oh man, you americans...

I guess no one understood what I was asking. All the considerations above is something I'm aware. We mill inhouse for last 7,8 years with 0 broken burs, 0 broken spindles, feather margins milled perfectly...So I think we know a bit what and how it should be done. Yes we don't mill metal but why should this be something completely different? I need a machine and a provider with great support and strategies tested and that's it. That I was asking about. What were our options in EU, yes EU, continent forgotten from god and hell. And if I pay 100k I at least expect thing to be milled and not broke a bur and f*ed up spindle etc...And I think it's a legit request, don't you?

Buddy. buddy buddy buddy buddy. Just... listen to us. Stop arguing and listen. I'm not going to be mean, but it's tempting because of how you're going about this.

1) I'm not an American, that really stings.

2) You are a machine operator who has never milled metal before. No matter what else you've achieved, the above holds true. You are arguing with multiple people who have backgrounds in CNC machining in non-dental industries. I went to school for tool & die, and I know CoolHandLuke has years and years of experience under his belt. You have never milled metal before, and you're trying to tell professional machinists how this works.
You are telling us that you never need to sharpen wood-carving knives because you've been whittling soap for a decade and your knife is still sharp.
You are telling us that you can obviously forge a pine 2x4 into a 1x8 board with a hammer because you've forged lots of copper bars before.
You see what I'm getting at here?
Milling a soft, friable material like pressed zirconia is in no way comparable to milling very hard and tough crystalline materials like metal. It just isn't. You are not correct in your assumptions. You're setting yourself up for disappointment. Trust us, it is not realistic to expect no broken tools. This is not achievable.
Just... back up here, back all the way up, and take another crack at this, but assume you know nothing about this subject. You will actually learn something valuable if you can stomach this exercise. Even if you have to pretend you don't know better than us, give it a shot, humour us. You are making a huge investment in an area you have no applicable experience in, it is strongly in your interest to l i s t e n to the people who do this for a living. We are trying to help you, you are not interested in help unless it confirms your (empirically-incorrect, unhelpful) prior assumptions. This is going to go badly for you if you persist.

80 grand investment or 80 grand mistake, the ball is in your court, Hoss.

 

[desertfox384]

 

[rookiee]

"We mill inhouse for last 7,8 years with 0 broken burs, 0 broken spindles, feather margins milled perfectly..."

Sorry but I don't believe you.

Second Roland, a joke machine yes, almost 5k hours, 70%zr, 30pmma. Two burs broken were a fault by a strategy engenner. e a mistake, replaced my burs for free, sorted strategy and we were good to go. Not a single one was broken before and after that. I mill my margin to 0,05 only, doesn't matter. I also mill for other lab with these settings. If here and there something is chipped, which is like 10 times per year it's because bur is out. I can hear it when it sounds funny. If I'm lucky, chiping hasn't occured and we replace it on time. If you don't believe me, visit me, happy to show you and you can sit for a year with us.

 

[rookiee]

no, is absolutely not a legit request.

you cannot compare milling metal to milling zirconia.

your experience with single crowns does not compare with implants.

there are 3 pieces of physics that you do not experience with zirconia that you totally exprience with metal milling:

1. work hardening. a piece of metal when it is cut can heat up enough that it reaches a Hardening point. this hardening does two things: A. it is much more difficult to cut in this specific section of material B it is now more Brittle. so when you use a pre-calculated feed and speed for the spindle and you create a hard spot, then go back over the same spot to finish the part your tool edge can't create correct slicing this leads to 2.

2. tool damage. with zirconia the tooling is diamond coated so that erosion and edge rolling does not occur. diamonds however, are not good for cutting metal. it does not create a clean cut and due to the tearing it damages the tooling faster.

3. neither of these problems are unique to Dental machines. you will experience this in every machine ever made. this is every metal, equally in aluminum, titanium and steel.

bulletproof is impossible.

i tell customers consistently to not track tool life on hours, instead track life on visible damage; use loupes or a scope to inspect the tool after every project, and hen you start to see edge damage or hear the sound of a bad cut to stop and retool the mill. some customers are receptive, others dont like this information and they call me to tell me they broke tools and i can only show them that had they inspected their tool they would have seen worn out or damaged tooling that will lead to bad units or broken tools if left unchecked.


people want a nice number of how many units you can make in metal before the tool is bad, or how many hours can the tool cut before its bad.

not an easy number to tell, due to how differently the tool is treated in each circumstance; for crowns you have short paths with a lot of quick spiral motions, with bridges or bars, a lot of long with cuts. these create different issues when cutting metal and they are sources of different sorts of wear.

you say you milled zirconia for 8 years with no broken tools or spindles, i can believe that. easy to do. then you say you know what you are doing, i have trouble believing that because you are not a CAM engineer, you are an operator, you know how to push the button to calculate, you dont have any idea what happens behind the scenes, and then you know how to press start on the mill. congratulations, you are a basic mill operator.

you want to cut metal but you dont want to be responsible for damaged tools or broken spindles. you are ridiculous.

Maybe doesn't seem like it but I understand all the things above. Trust me. What I don't understand is story below for instance....

Buddy bought, actually two of them, Imes 350. They were milling emax or to be exact, they were playing lotery with it. After a year, they had a bucket full of emax and a bucket full of broken burs. Each. They paid I don't know, 60, 70k for that machine. Now you tell me, is this machine bulletproof or not? And why after a year they somehow managed strategies and now mostly milling emax more or less sucessfully? Has this machine became bulletproof? Maybe but for sure wasn't. My "bulletproof" was leaning towards I pay a lot of money and you put machine into my lab and I expect that it mills normal things just fine. By bulletproof I meant strategies adapted to materials, machine etc. Having knowledge in helping and fixing, having service and replacment parts in stock etc. That was my bulletproof. Sorry but doesn't matter, selling me a machine for 100k in a suit with a fancy car and machine doesn't run as promised, is that too much to expect? This isn't a scoope of ice cream which you don't like and you throw it in trash. And I was asking or opened topic because mostly here is ither Imes or Ivoclar, VHF and then it's over. Don't know machines from engeneering part but Imes was always for me like a lemon. Man, machine doesn't stop when bur brakes or even when it sensors it's too short. Don't tell me this is normal. My cheap Roland stoped when it broke bur.

Nevertheless I hope you got what I wanted to ask or know. Maybe stupid topic name. Maybe I had lick with this toy named Roland but man it runs and runs. It's not fastest, most fancy, nor maybe the cleanest mill but it works. And yes, we have to know also with Roland how to manipulate cam, how to nest, hearing when bur is out etc...But with a little common sense and maintaince it works.

 

[tehnik]

I am former Roland user, located in Europe and milling metal, ceramic and hybrid composite with imes 350 pro (not plus) and I have not broken any metal burs so far... Also I have 0 problems with milling emax... I had problem with cooling the burs as the newer models did not come with adjustable nozzles but I got it replaced. Also had to make some adjustmets to strategies (I am using regular millbox and not imes own version of it) and all is good. I have decent support and get the strategy changes from them. I am currently struggling with medentika premills as every slot has different outcome and this means all the slots needs to calibrated separately, but with imes and millbox it is a headache. I am not sure if I want another regular 350 (pro/pro+)or imes at all due to the calibration issues and I should look at Arum (Axsys not available in europe) or something else.

PS. Imes has so many sensors that broken bur is def stopping the milling, BUT after the sequence is done and it measures the bur before putting it away.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

By bulletproof I meant strategies adapted to materials, machine etc. Having knowledge in helping and fixing, having service and replacment parts in stock etc

you just want good support with quality, well tested CAM, backed by real engineers.

again the part of this equation that we can't bulletproof is your part designs. as a CAM engineer myself, i can make a strategy to mill a part and then you come along and all the work i did now needs tweaking because you design a part with different basic requirements.

for example, most people make bars on multiunits. recently we had a customer looking to make a bar that not only contains multiunits but also has at least one non engaging implant interface.

these require different toolpaths, different strategy. when this template gets made it will be untested.

you as a customer will need to accept that if you design non traditional parts, you will need non traditional CAM templates, and accept the risk to mill it may cause some damage.