Best material for verification jig made chairside

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Wanted to get some opinions. I’m gonna start making verification jigs chairside. Duralay takes too long to set. What material you guys think be better to set around dental floss that’s strong quick won’t distort. Is there such a material lol?
 
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victormasi

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Primotec LC seems to be good, I don't use it but heard good things.
I use ultra thin ortho wire, not floss, then wrap it with GC pattern on the model.
 
kcdt

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Primotec LC seems to be good, I don't use it but heard good things.
I use ultra thin ortho wire, not floss, then wrap it with GC pattern on the model.
Primotec has twice the volume contraction. About 7%. I wouldn't use it unless I could cut and lute it back together.
I'd stick with the GC pattern resin.
 
CoolHandLuke

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...make ... them chairside?

are you not supposed to make them on the model, section it chairside, resin them in mouth, take pick up, and continue ?

why would you make them chairside?
 
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...make ... them chairside?

are you not supposed to make them on the model, section it chairside, resin them in mouth, take pick up, and continue ?

why would you make them chairside?
Because they are scanned. With a os. I’m getting 6k a arch so my ass is there to save as many steps as possible. I need a perfect verification jig made chairside any ideas be great. I’ll section it and lute it chairside. Just need to find right material.
 
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Anyone using primotech pattern lc?
 
Jo Chen

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Yes but exclusively used for model based verification jigs. Just add a layer to the temp cylinders and use light cure base plate for the span between cylinders so it looks like a mockup bar.
Don’t know how that would work intra orally.
You wrote you want to save time due to cost. If this is for all on four type restorations you can try in the verification jig at the same appointment as the base plate and wax rim. Two procedures in one appointment. Doing the intra oral Duralay is quite time consuming
 
Affinity

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Why wouldnt you just mill or print it beforehand and lute it in the mouth? Isnt this what you were asking about in the other thread? 6k is a lot to pay for someone whos making it up as they go.. no offense
 
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Yes but exclusively used for model based verification jigs. Just add a layer to the temp cylinders and use light cure base plate for the span between cylinders so it looks like a mockup bar.
Don’t know how that would work intra orally.
You wrote you want to save time due to cost. If this is for all on four type restorations you can try in the verification jig at the same appointment as the base plate and wax rim. Two procedures in one appointment. Doing the intra oral Duralay is quite time consuming
Trying to save patient visits more than time. First Long appointment or 2 more appointments
 
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Think about it you got master cast on scan. Print that out. Perfect verification jig and bite done in one appointment. Transfer jig to 3d master model. Bada bing bada boom lol. No one thinks that’s a good idea? Saving patient 2 appointments and a lot of impressions.
 
Affinity

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3d printed models flex, stone doesnt. Thats why the gold standard is a stone verification jig.
 
CoolHandLuke

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Think about it you got master cast on scan. Print that out. Perfect verification jig and bite done in one appointment. Transfer jig to 3d master model. Bada bing bada boom lol. No one thinks that’s a good idea? Saving patient 2 appointments and a lot of impressions.
good idea sure. technology isn't at that level yet though.

mathematically it just doesnt work.

lets say you have trios. what is trios accuracy shot-to-shot ? assuming perfect scan conditions, no patient fog, no drool, no wet areas or bad scan.

calculate it out, its relatively simple. the camera in superspeed mode captures at 30 frames per second. assume you took 2000 frames for an arch, which is not atypical.

that falls within their 1-2minutes per arch rule.

30 frames per second when all of the frames fall within the same 3dimensional space is fine, however this is capturing an area the size of a nickel and then lining them all up. it is important to know the shot-to-shot accuracy in order to determine if the arch is going to be shaped too wide, or conversely too narrow. how wide/narrow it gets will depend if the accuracy is good or bad, and depend on the number of shots taken.

because no matter what your scanner is going to be off. no matter what.

2000 shots at 8um accuracy leaves you with an arch that can be wide or narrow by 16mm (2000 x 0.008 = 16)

2000 shots at 0.8um accuracy leaves you with an arch +/- 1.6mm

any bar with a tolerance of 1.6mm is a poorly made bar.

so take an impression and stop trying to make math magic.
accuracy.png
Accuracy depends on how much overlap there is of all the scans together. Trios is case A. a fallible scan, based on the length and number of scans.

Case B is your box scanner. all of the data always overlaps, ensuring the deviation shot to shot is the same as the box scanner's internal photogrammetric ability to overlap scans.
 
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I realize that that’s where the verification jig comes into play. Doesn’t matter if off a little. At least the implant positions will be correct. I purchased a os. I’ll be taking the scans myself. No way in hell gonna be 1.6mm off. Then nothing but single crowns would fit I’ve done bridges 8 units without a problem.
 
CoolHandLuke

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remember it entirely depens on the number of scans, and the size of the area in question. a short enough quadrant wont pose much accuracy problems especially if 85% of the scans all focus on one tooth at a time. so there is an upper threshold where you dont want to do a case more than a certain length, irrespective of number of units.

nobel says a bar is only passively fitting if it is within 2um accuracy per implant.

nobel does not accept IOS data for bars.

and heres the kicker, nobel has the same failure rate for bars as everyone else.
 
Jo Chen

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Just curious. Is there a conversion denture in place when you start to restore for the final?
 
Jo Chen

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Yes there’s a setup on the on the 3d printed master cast
What I mean is, is there a temporary hybrid denture attached to the implants when the patient walks in to your office for you to start the process for the final?
 
Affinity

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"Doesnt matter if its off a little" How do you fit a jig to a model if its off a little? How do you adjust your printed model if it doesnt fit?

An 8 unit bridge over preps is a bit different than a horseshoe arch over 4mm cylindrical implants. You seem not to believe people who have already been down this path for many years.. yet youre asking them how to do it..
 

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