Acrylic Casting Pressure?

[hydent]

Interesting Rob, the problem with expectations is once you've delivered, that becomes the base line, everything from there on has to be as good or better. Just a thought As you say "We must carry a BIG bag of tricks......"

very true!!

 

[Kreyer]

very true!!

I thought this was our goal to set a clinical and technical baseline for quality??

We definitely do not want to decrease that baseline which will effect the quality of a prosthetic product!!

Understanding expectations is the result of excellence in communication and collaboration..

Rob

 

[droberts]

I think there is a grain of truth in that, however, I look to evidence based literature as well, dentistry is still too full of people who speak anecdotally of their clinical experiences without anything peer reviewed to substantiate. The manufacturers are some of the worst sinners in that regard.
I'd rather have the benefit of some literature before I commit thousands in hard earned capital towards a system that may only produce results I am (now) committed to seeing.
The various manufacturers have demonstrated time and again with dead end product lines that their marketing is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I appreciate your point of view, Rob, and I know you are committed to quality in your production, but I hesitate to think one must be a believer to evaluate the merits a religion, or anything else.
Purchase of a system is a big commitment.

I do not get out to lecture very often as I would like. If you ever get a chance to hear myself, you will find that I lecture on what I believe in and not the manufacturer. I to have sat in many courses listening to a speaker of the company selling their product. I want to hear a technician that is using it to hear the pros and cons. I would not even think of replying to this forum if it wasnt something that I can prove to be reliable to others. I have spent alot of my own money through the years to perfect what I feel is a high quality prosthesis , and I am still looking to improve. Right now in todays world there is a shortage of good removable techs. I recommend if you are looking to improve your lab skills, listen to what some of the experienced techs. have to say. Rob, I very well respect the comment you made from of a techncian of your status. Thank you, Danny

 

[hydent]

I thought this was our goal to set a clinical and technical baseline for quality??

We definitely do not want to decrease that baseline which will effect the quality of a prosthetic product!!

Understanding expectations is the result of excellence in communication and collaboration..

Rob

Your Right, however if one sets a baseline that can not be continuosly achieved with production demands........... you have to set a realistic baseline per how we are being compensated for what we do. We all don't do Rob Kreyer work and get the $ that you get , make no mistake about it many of us are capeable of that quality it's a matter of what your accounts are willing to pay if you buy filet mignon that's what you should expect if you buy hamburger well........ some may dissagree but this my friend is reality land.

 

[Didley]

Your Right, however if one sets a baseline that can not be continuosly achieved with production demands........... you have to set a realistic baseline per how we are being compensated for what we do. We all don't do Rob Kreyer work and get the $ that you get , make no mistake about it many of us are capeable of that quality it's a matter of what your accounts are willing to pay if you buy filet mignon that's what you should expect if you buy hamburger well........ some may dissagree but this my friend is reality land.

I agree, Well said Hydent, didn't think I'd ever say that did ya.

 

[droberts]

Not to be funny about this, but define quality. Whos sells a quality hamburger? McDonalds, Burger King, or Hardees? Just because McDonalds has sold over billions of burgers, does that mean its quality. As far as I am concerned, McDonalds has not improved on the quality of their burger in over years, but still have the sales. So wouldnt you say they have base lined their standards? They can meet the standards of their customer whether the customer pulls up through the drive up in a Mercedes or a Volkswagon Beetle. So I would say they have base line achieved their production demands. Now apply this to us. I spend the same amount of time on a case whether it is for a GP or a Prosthodontist. They both pay the same. But over the years I feel I have improved my base line to improve quality and meet the production demands and have increased fees. Sure you may lose 1 or 2 clients due to the increase in fees, but you will get that back with your fee increase and you get to work less. You have to find your own direction. If your content with the level your at, stay there and enjoy it. If you want to improve, work on it. Wanna get the most attention from your clients be consistant, it will pay off.

 

[hydent]

I agree, Well said Hydent, didn't think I'd ever say that did ya.

thanks and nope! I'm glad weve moved past the model pouring crap:tea:

 

[hydent]

I agree, Well said Hydent, didn't think I'd ever say that did ya.

Not to be funny about this, but define quality. Who's sells a quality hamburger? McDonalds, Burger King, or Hardees? Just because McDonalds has sold over billions of burgers, does that mean its quality. As far as I am concerned, McDonalds has not improved on the quality of their burger in over years, but still have the sales. So wouldn't you say they have base lined their standards? They can meet the standards of their customer whether the customer pulls up through the drive up in a Mercedes or a Volkswagon Beetle. So I would say they have base line achieved their production demands. Now apply this to us. I spend the same amount of time on a case whether it is for a GP or a Prosthodontist. They both pay the same. But over the years I feel I have improved my base line to improve quality and meet the production demands and have increased fees. Sure you may lose 1 or 2 clients due to the increase in fees, but you will get that back with your fee increase and you get to work less. You have to find your own direction. If your content with the level your at, stay there and enjoy it. If you want to improve, work on it. Wanna get the most attention from your clients be consistent, it will pay off.

I agree thats precisely what I am trying to do with my operation I am 31 years old and have set goals for where I want to be. Right now I have three levels of denture eventually I want to only have clients that want the highest level of denture and eliminate the other two lesser levels. That will be my baseline and the bar will constantly be raised and who knows someday I might be the one raising the bar for high end rem pros, when you old farts get older I'm the generation behind you old bastards like Rob K LOL. I never said you couldn't improve by learning and producing better work but be careful your baseline matches what you charge. Seems to be a hard to digest for you guys that have only been doing high end work for so long.

 

[toothmstr]

Baselines

Hydent and Danny I would agree with both of you. You can't just open a lab and say that you want $800 per arch. It has to be earned and that takes time. I feel that having multiple levels of dentures is the key to growing your business and helping you figure out where you are at with your customers. You can produce the best work in the world but if no one in your market is buying the best what are you to do?

 

[Didley]

Just because McDonalds has sold over billions of burgers, does that mean its quality. As far as I am concerned, McDonalds has not improved on the quality of their burger in over years, but still have the sales.

So what's more important to the bottom line of a business, marketing or quality. Sadly if you want volume, it's marketing.
I'm in the lucky position to be in a niche of top end stuff, a very small market, but I get to do the work I like. I'll never get rich doing it, though, it does bring satisfaction and it's where I want to be. If you want the dollars, fast "it'll do" work is the answer though.
Third world imported work is decimating our industry over in Australia, as I imagine it is, or will, in the US, but that's not my competition, thank God.

 

[droberts]

Hydent and Danny I would agree with both of you. You can't just open a lab and say that you want $800 per arch. It has to be earned and that takes time. I feel that having multiple levels of dentures is the key to growing your business and helping you figure out where you are at with your customers. You can produce the best work in the world but if no one in your market is buying the best what are you to do?

I fabricate and market only one choice of denture. High end. Always have, just kept improving on materials, technique, and consistancy.

 

[hydent]

I fabricate and market only one choice of denture. High end. Always have, just kept improving on materials, technique, and consistancy.

Brag on my friend brag on, the more I see your posts the more I begin to think you may just be an elitist that looks down on everyone else it the field. Not to sure about you yet Danny can't quite decide if your a good fellow that wants to help or someone who likes to showboat.

 

[Kreyer]

Your Right, however if one sets a baseline that can not be continuosly achieved with production demands........... you have to set a realistic baseline per how we are being compensated for what we do. We all don't do Rob Kreyer work and get the $ that you get , make no mistake about it many of us are capeable of that quality it's a matter of what your accounts are willing to pay if you buy filet mignon that's what you should expect if you buy hamburger well........ some may dissagree but this my friend is reality land.

Bart,

The key is you run your business do not allow it to run you!!
In todays removable prosthetic market there are no limits or boundries.
You can do whatever you want afterall you are the business owner!!
In regards to reality I have been there at one point or another in my last 44 years of being a DLT!!!

For the record you are the first person to call me an old Bast..d???

Rob

 

[droberts]

Brag on my friend brag on, the more I see your posts the more I begin to think you may just be an elitist that looks down on everyone else it the field. Not to sure about you yet Danny can't quite decide if your a good fellow that wants to help or someone who likes to showboat.

If one would simply read what someone is trying to say instead of judging who it may be coming from, information may be learned.

Wheres the respect of one being called "old bastard"? Rob you do have thick skin...

Last post...think I'll sit back and enjoy the show.popcorn

 

[Brian Hyde]

Li, but the actual process of matching your lab's needs to a system is more nuanced than that.

I agree with that.. For example our office puts soft silicone liners in all of the new dentures which pretty much eliminates the injection/ continous injection.. unless you want to duplicate every case and invest it twice... for me I would rather block out trial pack and have it done all in one shot wit even better results..

 

[hydent]

"I only do high end work" what is everyone supposed to get from that? is it helpful? I just don't understand what the point was in that post it's not that I don't like you, it's that you have my respect because I think you are one talented guy, but when you come off like an elitist you start to lose me a little. Maybe it was me not getting your point too, not sure how you wanted the point to be taken.

Thanks for the last advise Rob that's something I can take to work on monday and use. Sometimes admittedly the business runs me but I have 2 little mouthes to feed so I have to be careful to which direction I drive my business. I think were both right to some degree Rob I'm not sure your last post is in agrivation or whatever but the points are well taken. See the thing is Rob I'm not sure what kind of guy you are ,are you a guy I can joke around with by calling you an O B, or are you not? I assumed a little jab on age wouldn't be so controversial, I guess I was wrong. You know what they say with age comes wisdom and you do have 40 years under you belt and a lot of wisdom and I really do apreciate any wisdom you have to share and that goes for Danny too. I just feel like you guys have tunnel vision that all there is, is high end work out there and that's what everyone should be doing.

 

[kcdt]

I appreciate the urgings to take the road less traveled.
I really do. Those that have met me (Rob) met me om that road.
But there IS a reality to the marketplace that varies from area to area and time to time.
One of the things I see in my local economy during the downturn is a larger volume of needs based immediiate types of treatment. I live in a state where insurance mandates are almost universal.
I do "high end" work, mostly out of state by mail order, but there IS bread and butter right under my nose.
We live in a time when access to removable services are shrinking and the costs for the patient are hard to control. So is the answer that we're crappy businessmen if we don't each and every time make the most expensive appliance the market will bear?
Do we as health care providers not also have a responsibility to serve the "lower" tiers of the market? Or if not, at least, is volume automatically a decision to crank out substandard product?
I know Bart sometimes seems abrasive in how he responds to what he views as elitism, but I posit that what he is hearing come across that way DOES often take the air of an absolute, i.e., MY business model is the only way, and the rest are **** peddlers.

So, in the interest of good will and fairness, could we all take a deep breath and see that there MIGHT be some validity to serving other markets and niches?
Same with production processes and costs, because the impression I get is that middle ground isn't allowed to exist and that's total bull****.

 

[araucaria]

Can anyone tell me if there is a top end of injecting pressure for Diamond D acrylic. I'm using their flasks in a hydraulic press. General pneumatic methods seem to all be around 3-7 bar, but I'm told the Swiss Jet flasks recommend 25 bar. Is more better?
Also my press reads in Kilograms X1000, can anyone give me a conversion to Bar, from what I can deduce 1 bar is around 40kg, That's not Kg /cm2, by the way its Kg weight.

Many thanks popcorn

I'd go with about 75 PSI if it's pneumatic driven injection. or 5 - 6 bar press.
Try the Success system - simple and user friendly. Suck it and see. Ask your Dentsply rep for a loan unit for a few weeks.

Just bringing the topic back on line

 

[Kreyer]

"I only do high end work" what is everyone supposed to get from that? is it helpful? I just don't understand what the point was in that post it's not that I don't like you, it's that you have my respect because I think you are one talented guy, but when you come off like an elitist you start to lose me a little. Maybe it was me not getting your point too, not sure how you wanted the point to be taken.

Thanks for the last advise Rob that's something I can take to work on monday and use. Sometimes admittedly the business runs me but I have 2 little mouthes to feed so I have to be careful to which direction I drive my business. I think were both right to some degree Rob I'm not sure your last post is in agrivation or whatever but the points are well taken. See the thing is Rob I'm not sure what kind of guy you are ,are you a guy I can joke around with by calling you an O B, or are you not? I assumed a little jab on age wouldn't be so controversial, I guess I was wrong. You know what they say with age comes wisdom and you do have 40 years under you belt and a lot of wisdom and I really do apreciate any wisdom you have to share and that goes for Danny too. I just feel like you guys have tunnel vision that all there is, is high end work out there and that's what everyone should be doing.

Bart,

I know what you are talking about!!
Being a dental technician and especially a lab owner can be financially challenging to say the least.. I have two daughters and they remember some very difficult financial times I had as they were growing up. Over the last three decades my lab has evolved to where it is today.
My current lab did not just happen because I decided to market middle to high end prosthetics, it evolved from the mistakes I made when my lab targeted the low to middle market of prosthetics.
If you have read my articles you know I discuss the need for tiered marketing and offerring a wide range of prosthetic needs (extended product lines) to meet the desires and demands of todays prosthetic patient.
What you must understand is you are in business and no matter what market you cater to or which prosthetic product you are manufacturing you must make a PROFIT.. Now the level of profit will vary with every case depending on the variables involved. You must know how to read a profit and loss statement and understand where your percentages should be in line with sales and gross margin. I did not understand this myself until about 10 years ago and just opened and dental laboratory 35 years ago not a business!!
There is a definite difference from owning a lab and operating a business..

I understand that you are very young and do not have the experience, knowledge or wisdom as the old bas...ds in the dental laboratory world.

Being young you will see many changes in the dental lab industry/profession in the coming years...Removable prosthetics will evlove as did fixed prosthetics and there will be a technology revolution in manufacturing processes that is inevitable....

Remember that knowledge is the key to success...regardless of what market you are in........

Rob

 

[Kreyer]

I appreciate the urgings to take the road less traveled.
I really do. Those that have met me (Rob) met me om that road.
But there IS a reality to the marketplace that varies from area to area and time to time.
One of the things I see in my local economy during the downturn is a larger volume of needs based immediiate types of treatment. I live in a state where insurance mandates are almost universal.
I do "high end" work, mostly out of state by mail order, but there IS bread and butter right under my nose.
We live in a time when access to removable services are shrinking and the costs for the patient are hard to control. So is the answer that we're crappy businessmen if we don't each and every time make the most expensive appliance the market will bear?
Do we as health care providers not also have a responsibility to serve the "lower" tiers of the market? Or if not, at least, is volume automatically a decision to crank out substandard product?
I know Bart sometimes seems abrasive in how he responds to what he views as elitism, but I posit that what he is hearing come across that way DOES often take the air of an absolute, i.e., MY business model is the only way, and the rest are **** peddlers.

So, in the interest of good will and fairness, could we all take a deep breath and see that there MIGHT be some validity to serving other markets and niches?
Same with production processes and costs, because the impression I get is that middle ground isn't allowed to exist and that's total bull****.

Kenneth,

I completely agree with you reagrding an increase need for immediate dentures and have two articles coming out next month both discussing immediate dentures..

We are seeing more and more patients choosing to extract a tooth instead of restoring. If this is happening around the country it will have a profound effect on removable prosthetics in years to come.

Earlier this month I was in Japan giving a presentation to the Japan Denture Association. Japan has the oldest geriatric population on earth and the highest percentage of edentulism. The undergraduate education for dentists places an emphasis on removable prosthetics in their curriculum unlike the USA dental schools. To just get a job as a dental technician in a laboratory it is mandatory to have two years of education. This mandatory education requirements in Japan definitely showed with the skilled technicians I was honored to meet.

In regards to the last sentence in your post if I have given this impression in my posts believe me it was not intentional..

Rob