Acrylic Casting Pressure?

[Flipperlady]

It is my knowledge that the big difference between Ivocap and others is the continuous feed of acrylic where the others cap it off to hold pressure.
One of the reasons post dams are used is to compensate for acrylic shrinkage in this area, the Ivocap plays on this by contiuously feeding acrylic until this area in particular had cured. The other injection units still have shrinkage because they are rally no better than press pack with a plug
This said it's all apples and oranges because properly packed acrylic is just as good.

Michelle

 

[araucaria]

Success system works similarly to Ivocap, the spring in the injector maintains a continual pressure on the resin. If a bath similar to the Ivocap bath is used for curing then there may be a noticable difference for some users. As long as the flask isn't totally submerged and heated too fast or too high then improvements may be seen.
But after all the dedication from the Pros Lab can we count on the info given to us from the clinic - Imp techniques, Imp care and storage, Imp transportation/shipping? In general practice we should all be good enough at our job to deliver a satisfactory product - are we splitting hairs?

 

[kcdt]

droberts is one of the best technicians in the US. The work I have seen from Dr. Bob Schneider's presentations is amazing!!

In regards to:
Compression (Pack and Press)...
Injection (Success)
Continuous Press Injection (Ivocap)

It is only through experience that one has the knowledge base to throughly discuss a material and technique. If one has personal experience with Ivocap then they have the knowledge to discuss advantages and disadvantages..If one does not have the personal experience of the three processing techniques above then they should be open to learning as much as possible so they can make an educated decision based on experience and knowledge.

Rob

I think there is a grain of truth in that, however, I look to evidence based literature as well, dentistry is still too full of people who speak anecdotally of their clinical experiences without anything peer reviewed to substantiate. The manufacturers are some of the worst sinners in that regard.
I'd rather have the benefit of some literature before I commit thousands in hard earned capital towards a system that may only produce results I am (now) committed to seeing.
The various manufacturers have demonstrated time and again with dead end product lines that their marketing is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I appreciate your point of view, Rob, and I know you are committed to quality in your production, but I hesitate to think one must be a believer to evaluate the merits a religion, or anything else.
Purchase of a system is a big commitment.

 

[CYNOSURER]

science can be a bit of a brainstorm some days - try ice.

The explanation I recall about ice is that as water cools and crystallizes it creates space (think snowflakes...seems I heard 1/4 inch of rain equals 2 inches of snow). Density (less space) is one of the benefits of packing under pressure. So I'm not sure how the ice reference helps me.

Also bring chemistry into the equation, this changes everything.

If chemistry can change the laws of physics then my hat's off to Ivoclar. I understand some things aren't as they seem. Take shrinky dinks for example. Introducing heat makes them appear to shrink but what's really happening. Well, you can see a lot of what's happening but getting a clear mind's eye on what's going on, on a molecular/structural level isn't so easy. I can see that surface area changes but it's not too clear if volume changes (release of gas/air) Which is why I'm still having trouble visualizing what Ivocap is doing. How they explain it may be the easiest way (read: marketing) but not the most accurate way. Marketing is meant to sell not inform. So, I am a bit leery.

Ivocap has a small reduced temperature above the flask at the denture heels due to there being no insulation from the protective bubbles/balls, so during the initial temperature increase through the flask the last part to come up to the boil temperature is the sprue point. The injector unit also helps to dissipate heat into the atmosphere as it's a good heat conductor and the air supply is probably a low temperature too. It's no big deal.

The injector is a 'heatsink' that conducts heat into the atmosphere but away from the resin/reservoir within? Sounds like more magical design properties.

A similar point of interest is how refrigerators in stores can keep food cool and safe when there's no lid or door - what's going on there?

Same reason the bottom of a lake is colder than the surface. Heat rises. Cold sinks. Which is why logic sometimes doesn't always satisfy as now I'm wondering why lakes don't freeze from the bottom up...okay, I know why...but, just saying, simple answers (things grown ups tell little kids and things marketing tells everyone) aren't always that simple or accurate.

 

[hydent]

I can honestly say that I have invested and done quite a few cases in Ivocap (probably 100 +or -)and the system is no sh!t, it makes an incredibly dense hard denture that is hard to surpass. If I am being honest I do think it has a slight 1 up on success for that reason but I think success is more user friendly and more versatile which is why the success system was my choice. I'm with Rob K try it before you become a skeptic it is a good system.

 

[araucaria]

logic sometimes doesn't always satisfy as now I'm wondering why lakes don't freeze from the bottom up...okay, I know why...but, just saying, simple answers (things grown ups tell little kids and things marketing tells everyone) aren't always that simple or accurate.

We think way too hard Science and Logic eh - where's Spock when needed?
I went fishing a lot as a boy and wondered about many things like this (lakes)
Some things we should just accept and move on.

 

[CYNOSURER]

I'm not a skeptic of the system. I know too many good techs who have it and swear by it.

I am just a skeptic of the explanation of the system.

Like Dentsply and their Eclipse marketing. I still laugh when I think about it...and that is not to knock VLC over PMMA. They both have their pluses and minuses. But really? Fit at try-in equals fit at insertion. That's not a benefit of the system. That is marketing making a limitation of the system it's biggest selling point. And yet the system as a whole is just as cool as all get out. Wish I had one to play with. Don't know that I would/could fully convert to Eclipse for daily production. That, as Rob says, would depend on my experience with and knowledge of the process...but, like Ken said, why shell out the bucks (and the time) just to see...especially if the results show no clinically significant advantage. And I have yet to hear a tech rave about any great production advantages (still talking Eclipse here...if anyone got lost).

 

[araucaria]

like Ken said, why shell out the bucks (and the time) just to see...especially if the results show no clinically significant advantage. And I have yet to hear a tech rave about any great production advantages (still talking Eclipse here...if anyone got lost).

agree, always wondered about Eclipse but cannot fork out the money just to play and test. It looks an interesting sytem but for me it doesn't exhibit any real sign of quality. It looks messy and ugly. Maybe it has uses for quick production of certain types of work but I don't think it'll replace tried and tested pmma techniques.

 

[kcdt]

I can honestly say that I have invested and done quite a few cases in Ivocap (probably 100 +or -)and the system is no sh!t, it makes an incredibly dense hard denture that is hard to surpass. If I am being honest I do think it has a slight 1 up on success for that reason but I think success is more user friendly and more versatile which is why the success system was my choice. I'm with Rob K try it before you become a skeptic it is a good system.

The problem I'm having is not that it isn't a superior method, or that the end product isn't of high quality. It's that there is the tacit implication in the argument, that this is the only way to get a high quality product, and that this is a must for every lab, regardless of fit.
I contend that there are other injection systems, and well controlled compression molding processes that can and do produce a high quality result. People are in business to profit, and the expense of capital must be capable of realizing a gain that surpasses the dollar amount invested, or else you're a NON profit.
If I had employees, I would be more interested in production methods that produce a quality result without the training and experience level that compression molding requires, but I don't, and I am well trained and precise in my methodology.... so that outlay of several G's needs to do something far beyond what I produce now, or be capable of garnering market share far beyond the reach I have now, and for me, I don't see that as a realistic expectation of ROI.
I'm not saying it isn't the cats meow for those that use it, I'm saying it's more cat than I need.

 

[CYNOSURER]

We think way too hard Science and Logic eh - where's Spock when needed?
I went fishing a lot as a boy and wondered about many things like this (lakes)
Some things we should just accept and move on.

This is like saying we should quite trying to figure out women!!!

Sure, we might be better off if we just accepted them for the beauty and wonder that they are, but where's the fun in that? popcorn

I expect to drive myself crazy eventually...but, by then, I'll be old enough to blame it on Alzheimer's.

 

[Flipperlady]

Don't knock VLC Tim ! I used to laugh at it too the old Triad was pretty much useless. I now use the Triad Denture Material for baseplates and 1 tooth flippers. While it's really pink and a little brittle, there is real promise there..... Of course if that material is perfected then you can't sell $10,000
machines! I've had an idea floating around in my head along these lines that i might get one of those temporary patents on ! ;-)
I'm not talking about Eclipse BTW, just simple triad.

Michelle

I'm not a skeptic of the system. I know too many good techs who have it and swear by it.

I am just a skeptic of the explanation of the system.

Like Dentsply and their Eclipse marketing. I still laugh when I think about it...and that is not to knock VLC over PMMA. They both have their pluses and minuses. But really? Fit at try-in equals fit at insertion. That's not a benefit of the system. That is marketing making a limitation of the system it's biggest selling point. And yet the system as a whole is just as cool as all get out. Wish I had one to play with. Don't know that I would/could fully convert to Eclipse for daily production. That, as Rob says, would depend on my experience with and knowledge of the process...but, like Ken said, why shell out the bucks (and the time) just to see...especially if the results show no clinically significant advantage. And I have yet to hear a tech rave about any great production advantages (still talking Eclipse here...if anyone got lost).

 

[araucaria]

This is like saying we should quite trying to figure out women!!!
Sure, we might be better off if we just accepted them for the beauty and wonder that they are, but where's the fun in that? popcorn

I expect to drive myself crazy eventually...but, by then, I'll be old enough to blame it on Alzheimer's.

we'll never figure out that one :noidea::laugh::laugh:

 

[Kreyer]

I think there is a grain of truth in that, however, I look to evidence based literature as well, dentistry is still too full of people who speak anecdotally of their clinical experiences without anything peer reviewed to substantiate. The manufacturers are some of the worst sinners in that regard.
I'd rather have the benefit of some literature before I commit thousands in hard earned capital towards a system that may only produce results I am (now) committed to seeing.
The various manufacturers have demonstrated time and again with dead end product lines that their marketing is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I appreciate your point of view, Rob, and I know you are committed to quality in your production, but I hesitate to think one must be a believer to evaluate the merits a religion, or anything else.
Purchase of a system is a big commitment.

Kenneth,

No one is saying buy before you try..on the contrary IV offers courses on the Ivocap System that one can take and process a denture in order to evaluate their processing system before purchasing.

I having nothing against the other methods of processing..I decided to process with the continuous press injection system because my lab specialized at that time in combination attachment cases.
For any precision restorations with attachments I truly believe that closed flask continuous injection is the best processing system.

I still do some compression press/packing as I have for over forty years but 90% is Ivocap. It is also interesting that most production labs like Glidewell use the Ivocap System exclusively.

Rob

 

[hydent]

agree, always wondered about Eclipse but cannot fork out the money just to play and test. It looks an interesting sytem but for me it doesn't exhibit any real sign of quality. It looks messy and ugly. Maybe it has uses for quick production of certain types of work but I don't think it'll replace tried and tested pmma techniques.

Worked with it for a couple of years eclipse is garbage!!

 

[CYNOSURER]

It is also interesting that most production labs like Glidewell use the Ivocap System exclusively.

Most and exclusively???? Yeah Rob, I think that may need some quantifying there.
Most of the labs, that I've seen, use it as a mark up tool over their standard denture or their economy denture.

With the exception of my AED's (and there only for technique reasons) I use my premium acrylic (currently Luc 199) across the board. I'm glad to hear Glidewell (and most production labs) have taken that same high road. I know a lot a compression labs don't use any one acrylic or process exclusively...the bastards.

 

[Kreyer]

Most and exclusively???? Yeah Rob, I think that may need some quantifying there.
Most of the labs, that I've seen, use it as a mark up tool over their standard denture or their economy denture.

With the exception of my AED's (and there only for technique reasons) I use my premium acrylic (currently Luc 199) across the board. I'm glad to hear Glidewell (and most production labs) have taken that same high road. I know a lot a compression labs don't use any one acrylic or process exclusively...the bastards.

Alright....exclusively was a bad choice of words..what do you expect when I'm processing and posting and the same time........

 

[kcdt]

Kenneth,

No one is saying buy before you try..on the contrary IV offers courses on the Ivocap System that one can take and process a denture in order to evaluate their processing system before purchasing.

I having nothing against the other methods of processing..I decided to process with the continuous press injection system because my lab specialized at that time in combination attachment cases.
For any precision restorations with attachments I truly believe that closed flask continuous injection is the best processing system.

I still do some compression press/packing as I have for over forty years but 90% is Ivocap. It is also interesting that most production labs like Glidewell use the Ivocap System exclusively.

Rob

Like I said, I don't mean to denigrate the system or the decision to acquire one. I know for a fact that you have a solid commitment to excellence.
It's just that these things are easy to characterize in black and white, but the actual process of matching your lab's needs to a system is more nuanced than that.
I don't want those who've decided to forgo an Ivocap to think that is in and of itself a decision to the substandard.

 

[CYNOSURER]

I thought you'd want to clear that up. I wouldn't want anyone here to think you were in the marketing department.

Speaking of which, I got some nice replies from the guys at www.intercom.com. It still has some problems and there are some upgrades that would make it nicer but, as is, it's so much better than Dentsply's TruRx program.

InteRxCom is still not efficient enough to recommend use on a regular basis but sweet, nonetheless. I have linked to it from my website...though no one has taken advantage of it yet. Still waiting and hoping though.

InteRxCom the name is a problem in itself. The logo has the 'R' dipping down and ending with an 'x'. Cute. But the website name doesn't have an 'x' in it. Just writing this post I wasn't sure which name they wanted to go with. The website name sans the 'x' or the logo name with the 'x'. Of course in conversation pronouncing the 'x' version is a bitch but just the word intercom has no proprietary value. Who comes up with this stuff? Like Dentsply calling A2 a P2 and a B2 a P12. If they're going to steal the Vita shades then they should have gone with A2 = P12 P for Portrait; 1 for Alpha the 1st letter in the alphabet; and then the 2 to steal the Vita system. But it took them ages to differentiate their 31m zero degree from the 20 degree by putting a 4 in front of it. It's a shame they won't go back and fix that for their earlier lines.
but I digress into ranting...so back to work...there's a set up waiting for me and I promised TomZ an MBA video. popcorn

 

[Kreyer]

I thought you'd want to clear that up. I wouldn't want anyone here to think you were in the marketing department.

Speaking of which, I got some nice replies from the guys at www.intercom.com. It still has some problems and there are some upgrades that would make it nicer but, as is, it's so much better than Dentsply's TruRx program.

InteRxCom is still not efficient enough to recommend use on a regular basis but sweet, nonetheless. I have linked to it from my website...though no one has taken advantage of it yet. Still waiting and hoping though.

InteRxCom the name is a problem in itself. The logo has the 'R' dipping down and ending with an 'x'. Cute. But the website name doesn't have an 'x' in it. Just writing this post I wasn't sure which name they wanted to go with. The website name sans the 'x' or the logo name with the 'x'. Of course in conversation pronouncing the 'x' version is a bitch but just the word intercom has no proprietary value. Who comes up with this stuff? Like Dentsply calling A2 a P2 and a B2 a P12. If they're going to steal the Vita shades then they should have gone with A2 = P12 P for Portrait; 1 for Alpha the 1st letter in the alphabet; and then the 2 to steal the Vita system. But it took them ages to differentiate their 31m zero degree from the 20 degree by putting a 4 in front of it. It's a shame they won't go back and fix that for their earlier lines.
but I digress into ranting...so back to work...there's a set up waiting for me and I promised TomZ an MBA video. popcorn

Tim,

Portals take time to develop and grow...it has definite potential though..

Intercom.....Interdisciplinary Communication...

LIke MBA could be taken in many ways...an MBA video for TomZ what could that mean???

In the end result whatever processing system you use.. if you have exceeded the dentists and patient's expectations then your technicque and material selection was a contributing factor to achieving success with your prosthetic product..

We must carry a BIG bag of tricks......

Rob

 

[Didley]

if you have exceeded the dentists and patient's expectations then .....

We must carry a BIG bag of tricks......

Rob

Interesting Rob, the problem with expectations is once you've delivered, that becomes the base line, everything from there on has to be as good or better. Just a thought As you say "We must carry a BIG bag of tricks......"