4 axis vs 5?

[MikeW]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned it here yet but its very important to note that you can only have a maximum of 2 insertion directions with a 4 axis mill. Even if you only have 2, the rotation of the object will be locked to 1 of two orientations because the machine will need to keep the two insertion directions along the rotative axis. So if its a bridge in a block, many times it will not fit unless you override the rotation. When doing this you'll be left with undercuts in the prep area of the restoration that you'll have to grind away by hand. Anything above 2 insertion directions requires 5 axis. Anything like pratteau bridges, you'll need a 5 axis mill to be able to properly mill the emergence profile. There is the possibility of using lollipop tools (shaped like burs) to mill out subtle undercuts on a 4 axis mill but otherwise you're out of luck unless you get a 5 Axis Mill.

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[grantoz]

When i was talking to Enrico Steger From Zirkon Zahn he said and i quote 1st buy my machine but if you dont make sure its 5 axis anything else is poor.After buying a 5 axis zz mill and then starting to look at a 2nd machine cheep and 4 axis i have since ordered another 5 axis machine.

 

[grantoz]

When i was talking to Enrico Steger From Zirkon Zahn he said and i quote 1st buy my machine but if you dont make sure its 5 axis anything else is poor.After buying a 5 axis zz mill and then starting to look at a 2nd machine cheep and 4 axis i have since ordered another 5 axis machine.

 

[PDC]

The business model around buying a mill includes many advantages. First, milling centers make profits on all the cases they receive. By milling in house those profits get added to the labs bottom line. This can also make a lab more competitive on delivery time and pricing. An in house mill will also open doors through adding new products that will help you grow your business. There is no question, over the next few years the vast majority of viable labs will have mill(s). And most will have multiple mills for different indications and or materials. Today, about 1/3 of the mills we sell go into labs that already have at least one mill.

There are advantages to both business models. I prefer outsourcing because I don't want to deal with all the upkeep, inventory, ovens, payments, firing parameters, and the additional time involved with all that. My time is already used to the max without those issues. Having an in house mill won't free up any time for me, but outsourcing does, and I don't mind paying for those services.

I understand your perspective, especially since you sell mills, but there is certainly additional time involved to gain those profits by milling in-house. Outsourcing just works better for me...it frees up more time for recreation.

 

[Jonas]

There are advantages to both business models. I prefer outsourcing because I don't want to deal with all the upkeep, inventory, ovens, payments, firing parameters, and the additional time involved with all that. My time is already used to the max without those issues. Having an in house mill won't free up any time for me, but outsourcing does, and I don't mind paying for those services.

I understand your perspective, especially since you sell mills, but there is certainly additional time involved to gain those profits by milling in-house. Outsourcing just works better for me...it frees up more time for recreation.

It depend on your production PDC and the stability of your laboratory. I think that a milling machine if you are shure to work for the next 5 years is not an investiment, IF you are outsourcing around 1K a month.
It's mathematic, the ROI for a milling machine is much easier than any athor machines you ever bought.
You know all the upkeepings are nothing in confront of the dynamicity you get.

 

[rookiee]

5 axis you will love it 4 is like walking with only one shoe . mini price offical 23-24 K euro with basic software 4 ax ( advance software 1.5 more),imes 250 i dry offical 22 K Euro without cam , cam open SUM version 4 K Euro plus maybe 1 K for cam computer ( not cnc laptop this is incl.but they run seperate ) so conclusion 3 max 4 bucks more this money you save in one year with tools ( diamond) and smaller blanks . I have 4 ax mini and 5 ax 250 i wet i would never go back and as Jenners said less work its not the age its the 5 th ax. Dont limit your self because of 3-4 bucks.

One thing that worries me is CAM software. I'm completly blank on this field but seen some people struggling with SUM etc. What I like at wieland is plug&play system, at least I think that's what it is. With Imes I assume you bought their CAM? What's with strategies? Are they already in CAM as preset or you buy naked horse?

 

[BobCDT]

When purchasing a mill and CAM I believe most are selling cam with buit in strategies for most of the common materials. Imes included. Some distributors will enhance CAM with further development. However, when purchasing an industrial mill, not dental ready you are more likely to be on your own for developing mill strategies.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

When purchasing a mill and CAM I believe most are selling cam with buit in strategies for most of the common materials. Imes included. Some distributors will enhance CAM with further development. However, when purchasing an industrial mill, not dental ready you are more likely to be on your own for developing mill strategies.

very true. when you buy a CNC machine technically every part you produce has custom cutting strategies as every time you design a new part you'll likely want a new tool shape.

too laborious for dental, so our machines and CAM come simplified for faster turnaround.

i dunno about anyone else but i dont want to spend half a day working out a cutting path for a single unit.

 

[zero_zero]

One thing that worries me is CAM software. I'm completly blank on this field but seen some people struggling with SUM etc. What I like at wieland is plug&play system, at least I think that's what it is. With Imes I assume you bought their CAM? What's with strategies? Are they already in CAM as preset or you buy naked horse?

It depends on what do you want to mill and how tech savvy you are...for regular C&B work a plug and play setup will do just fine. Every CAD/CAM dental reseller should be able to provide you with a turnkey system and training.

 

[zero_zero]

i dunno about anyone else but i dont want to spend half a day working out a cutting path for a single unit.

Yeah, I do spend quite some time putting together custom strategies for some cases...but those are reusable in the future

 

[cadfan]

@ rookie started with 4K2 (mini) VHf software 1 year i was cam stupid i liked it than i made research tried Wieland ( Dental Softworks ) was better tried SUM more options better fit results but had to change a few things !!! simple feedrates , bigger things with SUM support , milled undercuts with lolipops and so on but this is only ok its not a 5 th axis but to much to tell about kinematic and tooling. My SUM is from SUM ( i was there client before i bought imes) but same strats than imes nearly everything worked from day one as expected i made just a few minor changes in the strategies 0.3 on occl. surface ( its not standard )0.6 margin and 0.6, 0.3 for special approximal areas with indiv curve must be programmed once and drawed in every case when needed ( 20 seconds per draw) the rest is all automatic. grinded e-max just for fun mine is a wet one never done but worked perfect milled camlog and bone-level interfaces in pmma done before on the mini with less success just done for fun it worked and so on. CAP s mills work with SUM i dont think all user s understand what they are doing but if you know what you want theirs always someone can do this for you the rest is automatic.

 

[charles007]

When performing CAM, these new materials will need to be placed in virtual discs based on shade rather than path of insertion. This is contrary to what we do now. For some percent of single units and a larger percent of bridges this will require 5 axis for control of shade and translucency distribution in restorations. Another good reason to go 5 axis. Great point Charles


Bob, not sure how to ask this question to get a better handle on the answer since I have practically no knowledge about Cams and axis.......
Large percentage of labs can get by with 4 axis mills since most of us are not doing large complicated cases every month. For me I'm starting to get full contour on anteriors almost every week. Is it possible for a 4 axis Cam to be tweaked/adjusted using a 4 axis mill to get better positioning to use these new multi-level graduation pucks ? Or is this strictly an axis issue to correct using 5 axis CAM and 5 axis mill.
In other words, do you think, is it possible, for resellers to adjust the Cam for the 4 axis mills they sell to better adapt for these blended pucks.. (Guess it impossible by not having the ability to rotate in 5 axis )

 

[cadfan]

For single fullzi multilayer its not a problem on 4 axis but starts at 3 units depended on geometry and the blank rotation option in the cam for positioning on the rotation ax than insertion axis and approximal areas fight against each other for the best option fit or form.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

Bob, not sure how to ask this question to get a better handle on the answer since I have practically no knowledge about Cams and axis.......
Large percentage of labs can get by with 4 axis mills since most of us are not doing large complicated cases every month. For me I'm starting to get full contour on anteriors almost every week. Is it possible for a 4 axis Cam to be tweaked/adjusted using a 4 axis mill to get better positioning to use these new multi-level graduation pucks ? Or is this strictly an axis issue to correct using 5 axis CAM and 5 axis mill.
In other words, do you think, is it possible, for resellers to adjust the Cam for the 4 axis mills they sell to better adapt for these blended pucks.. (Guess it impossible by not having the ability to rotate in 5 axis )

repositioning cases within the puck to get the best shade match, absolutely.

just be very careful you don't position it outside of the angle supported by each axis of rotation. this would particularly apply to a mill such as Laserdenta. you can tilt the axis of milling in only one direction, plus-minus 10 degrees or so. if the unit is tilted too far, it will just be unable to mill beyond that angle, so your fit will be off.

but yes, most cam will have an ability to recognize overangulation, because most cam software has a cutting simulation. in the simulation you'll see it be unable to properly cut the intaglio surface. it may not show up as an error but you'll see it none the less.

 

[sndmn2]

Help , Where can I find "milling for dummies" ? Mills , cams, strategies. Can someone point me to a website or publication ? I'm headed to Chi. to hopefully get at least a minimal amount of understanding. I hope that maybe Cap, Imes, Weiland or someone will be doing some sort of presentation. Sorry for butting into your thread and thanks.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

maybe you should go to nightschool and take a machinist course.

 

[BobCDT]

Guys, I just realized we have 3 new Roland DWX-50's (5 axis) in stock offered a reduced price. We picked these up from Roland after the introduction of the new DWX-51D. The DWX-50 had been around for about 5 years, is industry proven and has served so many of us really well. I don't know the price right now but i'm fairly certain it's about the same as a 4 axis mill. Roland had lowered the cost to us to make room for the new mills and are assuming we can place these in labs at a great price. I really think that anyone that is struggling with the decision of 4 or 5 axis due to the financial hurdle would be wise to pick one of these new, never used mills. The package includes;

Full 2 year factory warranty
CAP support
CAP training
A comprehensive starter kit
Strategies for the most complex geometries
Great for milling PMMA, wax, zirconia as well as the composite materials.
This mill created a new standard for our industry and is a great dry solution.
If interested you can reach us at 877-977-7889