4 axis vs 5?

[rookiee]

Ok, I'm a small lab investing most of my money into knowledge and less in equipment. Since I own a 3shape's D700 and outsourcing milling I started to think about milling machine. And we are not German market so investing 100k eur or so is out of the picture. On my wishlist was 350i from Imes Icore but all together it's still 60k plus with taxes of course. Almost the same price is Wieland's milling machine. In our labs we mostly do metal ceramics and e.max, zirconia mostly just for individual abutments and where e.max is not an option. Lately we mill more and more wax and then we press it. Metal is outsourced and made via SLM at acceptable prices.

Based on this situation I would need a simple machine for dry milling I assume, wax, PMMA and zirconia (we would never mill e.max, maybe sometimes would mill CoCr). Imes and Wieland are my favorites because of support since we are small market I would never chooose unknown company for a 1 or 2k lover price. But the problem is that all small machines which are kind of affordable for me are 4 axis. Add an axis and 20k plus will drain my pocket.

So in your opinion, from practical perspective, how important is having 5 axis? What does it mean in real lab life lack of one axis on your milling machine. If it's to tricky then I would rather save money for another year or so and buy one time and not to get screwed in the...you know what. So?

 

[CoolHandLuke]

5axis is for implant supported bridges where angles are wild, or milling bars, less so for 'unconventional' prepwork. generally if you are not milling metal you can spend less on your machine, but i'd still expect to pay close to 80k

but you need to have a target in mind here; "i just want to mill pmma wax and zirconia" isn't a target, its your first step. you'll want a machine that is dependable, durable, and will be able to expand into new materials as they develop.

which to me, means wet mill. wet mill mostly are 5 axis.

 

[CAD-CAM Jedi]

Have you looked into a Roland DWX51D? They are roughly $25K USD. Since the release, you may even be able to find yourself some steals on some Refurbished DWX-50's and get milling for under $15K USD. Please keep in mind that when milling zirconia, you will need to factor in the cost of a sintering oven, unless you currently own one. The 5th axis is definitely extremely useful. It will allow you to mill more complex screw retained restorations.

 

[JohnWilson]

Jumping into machining is scary for most. While the possibilities are super exciting the most wise piece of advice I can share is make sure the vendor you are placing your order with has terrific post sale support.

Something wise to do is to ask your salesman for references and give them a call and ask....

What has happened when your mill has gone down, how was it resolved and how long did it take?

Ask what it will cost to have a tech come to your lab AFTER the warranty period is up if something goes down.

Ask what major repairs have been done and then figure out the lifespan of the mill.

In my opinion there will be MANY used mills hitting the marketplace here in the near future that essentially are disposable and not good investments. These mills will have a diminishing return if purchased and repaired.

No one is talking about the lifespan of these table top mills and the true cost of ownership.

Good luck on your investment

 

[Patrick Coon]

What is your bread and butter? Do you do and outsource a lot of large span, multi abutment cases (complex geometry, like - All-On-4, full arches, etc) from Zr02, wax, PMMA or metal, than I would think more about going 5 axis dry (hybrid or wet if you plan to mill glass ceramics like Empress or e.max).

If you are mostly doing 4 unit bridges or less, single units and the occasional long span, than I would get a less expensive 3+1 or 4 axis mill to do the 95% of my work and stick with the outsource center you are using for your BIG stuff? This way you cut down your outsource bill, but let them take the hit on a long span that does not fit for some reason.

If you do plan on starting to mill your own Co-Cr, wax, PMMA your dry 4 axis mill should be able to accomplish that with the right cutters and strategies. The only reason in those cases to go 5 axis and wet is if you are planning on milling Titanium (that requires wet) or again those long span, complex geometry restorations.

Hope this helps!

 

[zero_zero]

................
No one is talking about the lifespan of these table top mills and the true cost of ownership.

^^^ True...ROI looks way better from the sales point of view

I'd stay away from refurbished mills...yeah, it may boost another two year warranty and a new spindle, but keep in mind that was built with planned obsolescence just like everything else...

 

[rookiee]

Tnx guys for feedback. At the moment I think the best support I can get from Wieland since it's the most spread across my country, btw, I'm from Europe. At the moment I'm doing simple cases, what's on implants there are small bridges, singles crowns, individual abutments...No bars or all on 4 or something...at least for now...Zenotec Mini is affordable but those 4 axes are my main concern...but I like an idea that it's almost plug and play machine. Don't wanna spend years on strategies etc... Used machine I think it's not real option since I like to be covered...even 15k is some money. I think if only 5% of work is unmillable then I can survive and outsorce it. Is anyone here using Mini and their CAM? Seen it few times from distance so can you tell me if CAM reports what can't be milled or something, so that you can know when to use 4 or 5 axis for those who own Select? Yeah I know I sound like a sissy but I like to do research before I empty my pocket.

 

[BobCDT]

I have writt n a couple of blogs that may help.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/top-...-provider-before-cohen-cdt?trk=mp-reader-card

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/2014...derstanding-4-5-axis-mills?trk=mp-reader-card

 

[pjd cdt]

Tnx guys for feedback. At the moment I think the best support I can get from Wieland since it's the most spread across my country, btw, I'm from Europe. At the moment I'm doing simple cases, what's on implants there are small bridges, singles crowns, individual abutments...No bars or all on 4 or something...at least for now...Zenotec Mini is affordable but those 4 axes are my main concern...but I like an idea that it's almost plug and play machine. Don't wanna spend years on strategies etc... Used machine I think it's not real option since I like to be covered...even 15k is some money. I think if only 5% of work is unmillable then I can survive and outsorce it. Is anyone here using Mini and their CAM? Seen it few times from distance so can you tell me if CAM reports what can't be milled or something, so that you can know when to use 4 or 5 axis for those who own Select? Yeah I know I sound like a sissy but I like to do research before I empty my pocket.

I have been using the mini with there basic cam for over a year now. No problems at all. One of the best investments I made for my small(2 person) lab. I will zirconia wax and pmma. This mill was paid off in about six months. My next mill will most likely be a 5 axis. Mainly because I already own a 4. My only words of caution would be to make sure you have a large enough compressor that supplies a lot of CLEAN DRY AIR.
Good luck!

 

[JMN]

Tnx guys for feedback. At the moment I think the best support I can get from Wieland since it's the most spread across my country, btw, I'm from Europe. At the moment I'm doing simple cases, what's on implants there are small bridges, singles crowns, individual abutments...No bars or all on 4 or something...at least for now...Zenotec Mini is affordable but those 4 axes are my main concern...but I like an idea that it's almost plug and play machine. Don't wanna spend years on strategies etc... Used machine I think it's not real option since I like to be covered...even 15k is some money. I think if only 5% of work is unmillable then I can survive and outsorce it. Is anyone here using Mini and their CAM? Seen it few times from distance so can you tell me if CAM reports what can't be milled or something, so that you can know when to use 4 or 5 axis for those who own Select? Yeah I know I sound like a sissy but I like to do research before I empty my pocket.

Dude, that's not being a sissy, that's being *smart* you worked for that money, now make it work for you as hard as you did for it.

 

[Drizzt]

Tnx guys for feedback. At the moment I think the best support I can get from Wieland since it's the most spread across my country, btw, I'm from Europe. At the moment I'm doing simple cases, what's on implants there are small bridges, singles crowns, individual abutments...No bars or all on 4 or something...at least for now...Zenotec Mini is affordable but those 4 axes are my main concern...but I like an idea that it's almost plug and play machine. Don't wanna spend years on strategies etc... Used machine I think it's not real option since I like to be covered...even 15k is some money. I think if only 5% of work is unmillable then I can survive and outsorce it. Is anyone here using Mini and their CAM? Seen it few times from distance so can you tell me if CAM reports what can't be milled or something, so that you can know when to use 4 or 5 axis for those who own Select? Yeah I know I sound like a sissy but I like to do research before I empty my pocket.

Hey there , where are you from ?
I would never ever limit myself with a 4 axis mill . Believe me , it will sting like a bitch when you will need to outsource stuff , and still have paid 20-25 k for a mill . Plus don't think only the present , think about the future as well . Being able to mill inhouse , you can grow your business and then the more complex stuff might come .

Also , since you are a small lab , you would be able to fit a bridge that would normally fit in a e.g. 14mm to a 12mm or a 10 mm . This means you will need to keep less discs in stock , and spend less money to do that . I have two milling machines , both are 5 axis and I never regretted for my choice .

 

[Sevan P]

With the current prices of some of the 5axis out on the market why not is the questions to be asked. Roland with cam 32k-33k, VHF 5axis 30k both no suction. with cam, Weiland and Imes are much more. But for day to day milling a 4axis is more then enough, even on a 4axis I cut abutments and large span bridges. But multi insertion high angle units a 5 axis will come to play. Also with a 5axis you can nest a angled unit anywhere in the disk as where a 4axis depending on the cam 180 degrees rotation only and limited placement in the disk. I just set a buddy up with 2 vhf 5 axis mills and we are going to be getting his older roland dwx-50 up and running on hyperdent this month. He doesn't do all on 4 or implant bridges but he has the option to down the road. But getting more technical and using lollipop burs and fancy strategies equal longer cutting times as where finishing by hand is faster in places the mill couldn't cut.

We at our place are running 2 4 axis mills and pumping out units left and right with perfect fits, trading one 4 axis in towards a 5 axis to have the option of more technical cases down the road.

Do your research and get the best bang for your buck, this is a big investment and I have seen labs jump from mill to mill and cam software to cam software just because of being cheap and inpatient.

 

[Torquadon]

Check Yenadent D15, it can mill metal, wet and dry, it is 5 axis and it is cheap for what it does. And yeah forget about 4axis, sure it can do some stuff but fit of a coping milled with continuous 5axis milling is so much better, for implants it is a must have.

 

[BobCDT]

I prefer 5 axis for a first mill. No limitations of indications, no surprises that you can't mill a specific bridge after you try and have open margins and are out of time and need to outsource. The price point difference is really not very much between 4 & 5. The Roland DWX-51d (5 axis) is now about $26K (without CAM),the AG Mikro (4 axis) $25K with CAM. The 5 axis CAM will cost you about $25-30 a week over 5 years.
If you're scaling your lab and need a second mill for production a 4 axis can do the trick. I like 5 axis for a labs first mill.

 

[Jenners]

If you can afford it, go for the 5 axis. I've been using a 4 axis for close to 10 years and while it did the job well, there was still a bit of seating due to poor preps, undercuts, etc. I just got a DWX-50 and it mills those same preps so much better. My finishing time has dropped drastically. Although take in consideration that my 4 axis was a bit old... so maybe the newer 4 axis mills are better.... but I personally would go for the 5. That way you're covered for a good long time in case you want to expand what you want to do with it.

 

[charles007]

The newest generation of zirconia's that's already on the market and more coming are the Multilayered Graduation pucks where you have 3 different levels of translucency(40%-80% and 700 MPa-1200Mpa range.
Using these Multi-layered 2 or the newest 3 level graduation/MPa, does it require 5 axis or can 4 axis be used on most singles and smaller bridges ? I would think this might be very important to consider even for smaller
labs that think they would rarely need 5 axis milling ..... I'm sure sometime in the future Emax will come in Multi-Layered blocks to mill ....
If I'm right I think labs will really need to go with 5 axis because of newer generation of materials and the possibility of needing wet milling ?

 

[BobCDT]

The newest generation of zirconia's that's already on the market and more coming are the Multilayered Graduation pucks where you have 3 different levels of translucency(40%-80% and 700 MPa-1200Mpa range.
Using these Multi-layered 2 or the newest 3 level graduation/MPa, does it require 5 axis or can 4 axis be used on most singles and smaller bridges ? I would think this might be very important to consider even for smaller
labs that think they would rarely need 5 axis milling ..... I'm sure sometime in the future Emax will come in Multi-Layered blocks to mill ....
If I'm right I think labs will really need to go with 5 axis because of newer generation of materials and the possibility of needing wet milling ?

When performing CAM, these new materials will need to be placed in virtual discs based on shade rather than path of insertion. This is contrary to what we do now. For some percent of single units and a larger percent of bridges this will require 5 axis for control of shade and translucency distribution in restorations. Another good reason to go 5 axis. Great point Charles.

 

[PDC]

Good Lord! Just scan it and send the file to the milling center of your choice. Let them worry about all the new materials, upkeep costs, shades, remakes, etc. I think a nice new boat and truck would be a much more satisfying purchase.

 

[cadfan]

5 axis you will love it 4 is like walking with only one shoe . mini price offical 23-24 K euro with basic software 4 ax ( advance software 1.5 more),imes 250 i dry offical 22 K Euro without cam , cam open SUM version 4 K Euro plus maybe 1 K for cam computer ( not cnc laptop this is incl.but they run seperate ) so conclusion 3 max 4 bucks more this money you save in one year with tools ( diamond) and smaller blanks . I have 4 ax mini and 5 ax 250 i wet i would never go back and as Jenners said less work its not the age its the 5 th ax. Dont limit your self because of 3-4 bucks.

 

[BobCDT]

Good Lord! Just scan it and send the file to the milling center of your choice. Let them worry about all the new materials, upkeep costs, shades, remakes, etc. I think a nice new boat and truck would be a much more satisfying purchase.

The business model around buying a mill includes many advantages. First, milling centers make profits on all the cases they receive. By milling in house those profits get added to the labs bottom line. This can also make a lab more competitive on delivery time and pricing. An in house mill will also open doors through adding new products that will help you grow your business. There is no question, over the next few years the vast majority of viable labs will have mill(s). And most will have multiple mills for different indications and or materials. Today, about 1/3 of the mills we sell go into labs that already have at least one mill.