Cerec SpeedFire

[SmileRX]

Has anybody had any experience with this sintering oven yet?

Can you sinter other zirconias in it, or does it have to be Cerec's?

What's the quality of the crown, compared to traditionally sintered?

Thanks!

 

[CoolHandLuke]

rapid sintering always leads to poor quality, and in every instance of firing zirconia - cerec or otherwise - rapid sintering of 3+ unit bridges leads to instant catastrophic failure.

good quality zirconia needs to be slow heated and slow cooled. best results come from 7+ hrs programs. the biggest reason people put production into overnight jobs instead of waiting around all day.

can you do other zirconia, sure. should you speedsinter in the first place, hell effing no. not until the zirconia formula improves. anything with 96% or more zirconia content takes time to do right. lower content such as Suprinity is more akin to an emax than zirconia, and fires lower and quicker. trending in that direction is where you find speed results that can look ok and be workable with a bit less effort than traditional zirconia.

do i have first hand experience? no, just going by my history with speedsintering, and the current state of materials. also my unbridled irrational hated for all things cerec.

 

[Patrick Coon]

The Speed Fire is connected to and controlled by the Cerec Software and will only sinter zirconias that are in and milled by their system.

 

[rc75]

I've seen a crown speed fired in a cerecs magical speedfire oven....what a joke! Very opaque!

 

[SmileRX]

The Speed Fire is connected to and controlled by the Cerec Software and will only sinter zirconias that are in and milled by their system.

That's what I was afraid of, since Cerec says that the sintering time is calculated based upon each individual crown.

As to your point, Luke, I initially agree. But, you never know.... Also, no man can eat 100 eggs!

 

[Getoothachopper]

That's what I was afraid of, since Cerec says that the sintering time is calculated based upon each individual crown.

As to your point, Luke, I initially agree. But, you never know.... Also, no man can eat 100 eggs!

" I AGREE !!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

[grantoz]

ive seen cerac speed sinter zi crowns and how you say ,it looks, like pooh pooh. thats a scientific phrase by the way.i have a client who purchased their [sirona] big mill and the speed furnace etc so he could mill his full arch temp bridges for all on 4 in 45mins and then speed sinter his full arch zi bridges ,apparently my zirkonzahn stuff was a bit slow and out of date according to him thats what his cerac rep told him, after all he would know. how do these smart guys get constantly bull5hitted to and still sirona survives and thrives.

 

[rkm rdt]

ive seen cerac speed sinter zi crowns and how you say ,it looks, like pooh pooh. thats a scientific phrase by the way.i have a client who purchased their [sirona] big mill and the speed furnace etc so he could mill his full arch temp bridges for all on 4 in 45mins and then speed sinter his full arch zi bridges ,apparently my zirkonzahn stuff was a bit slow and out of date according to him thats what his cerac rep told him, after all he would know. how do these smart guys get constantly bull5hitted to and still sirona survives and thrives.

This is what I was eluding to.
It's not about the esthetics with diy'ers and the " my sirona " reps know that.
There's no bs here,just high 5's.

 

[mmbh]

Are you referring to the "Infire Ht Speed" lab furnace.I have one. There is a distinction between programs. There is a classic program, speed program and super speed program. The speed program produces a less translucent crown and I give full disclosure to the dentist that it wouldn't look as nice with fast turnaround. The speed and super speed program were really intended for more opaque zirconia abutments for Ti bases. Of course sirona oversells it. Classic program crowns come out great, I also have an old vita zyrcomat that I programmed and it works well.

 

[Patrick Coon]

Are you referring to the "Infire Ht Speed" lab furnace.I have one. There is a distinction between programs. There is a classic program, speed program and super speed program. The speed program produces a less translucent crown and I give full disclosure to the dentist that it wouldn't look as nice with fast turnaround. The speed and super speed program were really intended for more opaque zirconia abutments for Ti bases. Of course sirona oversells it. Classic program crowns come out great, I also have an old vita zyrcomat that I programmed and it works well.

No we are talking about the new SpeedFire furnace that is intended for the Chairside milling. This is directly connected to the Chairside Milling Software and is intended to sinter single unit zirconia in around 15-20 minutes (if dry milled) and crystalize e.max in ~35 minutes (with no vacuum). It does an adequate job, but at these speeds for zirconia you don't get the best translucency, but it works for fast turn-around of single units.

 

[mmbh]

No we are talking about the new SpeedFire furnace that is intended for the Chairside milling. This is directly connected to the Chairside Milling Software and is intended to sinter single unit zirconia in around 15-20 minutes (if dry milled) and crystalize e.max in ~35 minutes (with no vacuum). It does an adequate job, but at these speeds for zirconia you don't get the best translucency, but it works for fast turn-around of single units.

Ok, I thought so. I have an account who has this and he was wondering why his zirconia looked white and mine didn't. I had a hard time explaining it to him without chuckling. He was just going by Sirona's classic oversell.

 

[mmbh]

Speed firing of zirconia is getting better and better. Depending on what brand I sinter, in a lot of cases it is only marginally better on the longer cycle. In office zirconia will continue to get better until it looks acceptable. It may never be as good as what we can provide, but since they can produce it in house, a lot of Dentists will do it.

 

[Xydorf]

Speed firing of zirconia is getting better and better. Depending on what brand I sinter, in a lot of cases it is only marginally better on the longer cycle. In office zirconia will continue to get better until it looks acceptable. It may never be as good as what we can provide, but since they can produce it in house, a lot of Dentists will do it.

I still dont get the financial sense of this... for me as a dentist it makes really no sense. To take digital impressions and use cad/cam is smart, but to waste your valuable time on lab tech work with a worsd result seems insane... what am I missing here...

 

[mmbh]

I still dont get the financial sense of this... for me as a dentist it makes really no sense. To take digital impressions and use cad/cam is smart, but to waste your valuable time on lab tech work with a worsd result seems insane... what am I missing here...

Your not missing anything. Some just don't see the big picture or calculate the real cost per unit breakdown. They only see the $30-40 per block. They don't take into consideration the payments for their overpriced equipment and cost of software upgrades and not to mention in 5 years when its paid off their equipment is worn out and they need new stuff, and wasted chair time actually doing the work and troubleshooting. I think some of it is a me too marketing strategy "crowns in one day" etc.
I think some of them are just trying to stay relevant, just like us.

 

[BobCDT]

rapid sintering always leads to poor quality, and in every instance of firing zirconia - cerec or otherwise - rapid sintering of 3+ unit bridges leads to instant catastrophic failure.

good quality zirconia needs to be slow heated and slow cooled. best results come from 7+ hrs programs. the biggest reason people put production into overnight jobs instead of waiting around all day.

can you do other zirconia, sure. should you speedsinter in the first place, hell effing no. not until the zirconia formula improves. anything with 96% or more zirconia content takes time to do right. lower content such as Suprinity is more akin to an emax than zirconia, and fires lower and quicker. trending in that direction is where you find speed results that can look ok and be workable with a bit less effort than traditional zirconia.

do i have first hand experience? no, just going by my history with speedsintering, and the current state of materials. also my unbridled irrational hated for all things cerec.

Respectfully, Speed sintering is available with no compromise. I have seen the data from test results from both Dental Direkt and Amann Girrbach. The DD zirconia lost about 31MPa flexural strength in the speed cycle. AG lost a little less. Translucency was dead on with the AG and a tiny bit more opaque with the DD. I would say it is clinically insignificant and undetectable by eye.
I have also seen hundreds of single unit crowns that look identical to long cycles. At CAP we are running speed cycles 3 times a day in our Dekema furnace. This cycle shows no ill effect with a 2:45 sintering program in the Dekema 674 sintering furnace. The capacity for the speed cycle is reduced to 15 single units in one open tray. Dental Direkt and Dekema spent much time and money to get the cycle and properties of the zirconia to be equal to the long cycle.
Once DD accomplished this Amann Girrbach also did the same project with Dekema and got an AG cycle worked out. Again, the furnace capacity is reduced from 50-60 to 15 single units only. They also tested the smaller Dekema 664 and got a 2-hour program, max cap 12 units.
I can't imagine the Cerec 15 minute cycle really sisters a unit currently.

 

[mmbh]

Respectfully, Speed sintering is available with no compromise. I have seen the data from test results from both Dental Direkt and Amann Girrbach. The DD zirconia lost about 31MPa flexural strength in the speed cycle. AG lost a little less. Translucency was dead on with the AG and a tiny bit more opaque with the DD. I would say it is clinically insignificant and undetectable by eye.
I have also seen hundreds of single unit crowns that look identical to long cycles. At CAP we are running speed cycles 3 times a day in our Dekema furnace. This cycle shows no ill effect with a 2:45 sintering program in the Dekema 674 sintering furnace. The capacity for the speed cycle is reduced to 15 single units in one open tray. Dental Direkt and Dekema spent much time and money to get the cycle and properties of the zirconia to be equal to the long cycle.
Once DD accomplished this Amann Girrbach also did the same project with Dekema and got an AG cycle worked out. Again, the furnace capacity is reduced from 50-60 to 15 single units only. They also tested the smaller Dekema 664 and got a 2-hour program, max cap 12 units.
I can't imagine the Cerec 15 minute cycle really sisters a unit currently.

I agree about the 15 min cycle, just because you can doesn't mean you should. We are using a medium cycle and averaging 2 cycles per day. As our volume increases, plans are to speed that up similar to what you are achieving. Plus gives technicians more time to finish off units.

 

[BobCDT]

BTW, a 2-3 hour cycle can take a full day off the workflow.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

sure, "quick" 3h programs can still slow cool and get ok looking units. no disagreement there.

but reducing it to 90, 60, and 30 minute programs with cooling from 1500 to room in the space of 5 or 10 minutes is NOT acceptable. it wears out the furnace, mostly.

you guys all remember when mr Delorean did his rapid sinter thing? remember how that ended?

 

[grantoz]

the 15- 20 minute cycle is the one the dentist remembers, the client i was talking about was going to do his full arches on that program.that same cycle brings the strength down by about 20 -30 % and they are very opaque. not to mention what happens to the zi if you dont let it completely cool after firing my staining program takes longer than that.

 

[BobCDT]

sure, "quick" 3h programs can still slow cool and get ok looking units. no disagreement there.

but reducing it to 90, 60, and 30 minute programs with cooling from 1500 to room in the space of 5 or 10 minutes is NOT acceptable. it wears out the furnace, mostly.

you guys all remember when mr Delorean did his rapid sinter thing? remember how that ended?

Just an FYI, we got the Dekema in Feb 2016. We have run 3 cycles a day since then with zero furnace problems. That's well over 1000 cycles.