Cerec SpeedFire

[Getoothachopper]

Respectfully, Speed sintering is available with no compromise. I have seen the data from test results from both Dental Direkt and Amann Girrbach. The DD zirconia lost about 31MPa flexural strength in the speed cycle. AG lost a little less. Translucency was dead on with the AG and a tiny bit more opaque with the DD. I would say it is clinically insignificant and undetectable by eye.
I have also seen hundreds of single unit crowns that look identical to long cycles. At CAP we are running speed cycles 3 times a day in our Dekema furnace. This cycle shows no ill effect with a 2:45 sintering program in the Dekema 674 sintering furnace. The capacity for the speed cycle is reduced to 15 single units in one open tray. Dental Direkt and Dekema spent much time and money to get the cycle and properties of the zirconia to be equal to the long cycle.
Once DD accomplished this Amann Girrbach also did the same project with Dekema and got an AG cycle worked out. Again, the furnace capacity is reduced from 50-60 to 15 single units only. They also tested the smaller Dekema 664 and got a 2-hour program, max cap 12 units.
I can't imagine the Cerec 15 minute cycle really sisters a unit currently.

I've ordered a 'ceramill therm S' (Dekema 664) from you Bob and am excited to enter the world of faster sintering. The thought of having a simple case completed from impression to finished crown in one day blows my mind. I have been experimenting with my production and already have case back to some Docs by the next day (workload permitting). Although I'm sure this will 'bite me in the Butt' down the road when they expect all the work back that quickly

 

[CoolHandLuke]

Just an FYI, we got the Dekema in Feb 2016. We have run 3 cycles a day since then with zero furnace problems. That's well over 1000 cycles.

yeah i understand, i'm just trying to point out that in the 5 year history on this forum of people's experiences with zirconia speed sintering, very few have had any acceptable results. back in 2012 before the ban of mr delorean he had his own sponsor forum where he posted regularly his results.

this was a guy willing to remove the sintering tray from the oven while it was still glowing red hot, dunk it in water, and get a 10 minute result.

none of his units were even close to acceptable, of course. and it was widely regarded that there IS a limit to how fast you can (and should) accelerate the process.

12 hour programs became 7 hr programs when it was discovered the heat rate could increase without risk to the units.

7 became 4 and 3 hr programs when it was discovered how quickly you could safely cool a unit

3 hrs became 90 minutes when people played with single coping production where colour was not an issue

15 minutes i have serious doubts about.

 

[BobCDT]

J

I've ordered a 'ceramill therm S' (Dekema 664) from you Bob and am excited to enter the world of faster sintering. The thought of having a simple case completed from impression to finished crown in one day blows my mind. I have been experimenting with my production and already have case back to some Docs by the next day (workload permitting). Although I'm sure this will 'bite me in the Butt' down the road when they expect all the work back that quickly

Make sure you charge a premium for next day crowns. That way it will not become expected on all cases. I'm thing 50% upcharge.

 

[Patrick Coon]

Oh, it will sinter ok, with little loss of strength and fits that are good. Where you lose is the translucency.

Our CS4 has a 37 minute cycle (20 minutes of dry time because our PM1 mill is a wet mill) for up to 3 full contour units. The results are acceptable for something that is considered a white "metal" restoration, nothing really esthetic (we actually have a 57 minute program for a little better results). So yes it can be done, the strength is ok, but esthetics definitely suffer with, let's call it "speed sintering" (<1hr cycles) to differentiate it from fast sintering (2.5 - 5.5hr cycles).

Fast sintering is not a problem. We even are now advocating a couple fast programs for all our materials, ranging from 2.5 hrs to 5.5 hours, depending on the translucency.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[grantoz]

its good to see that we are trying to replicate the sirona results rather than raise the bar and do something better. because nothing makes a dentist more happy than to be able to send his or her case to us for manufacture and have the ability to pay more for something which they in their mind could do themselves ,well done guys you have just been sironaded. why dont we just become sironist rather than ceramists.do you honestly think by doing what sirona does you are going to get their business.all sirona is going to do is say to the dentists is i told you so. Ill see if i can invent some more sirona words for you to use in your marketing im sure sirona wont mind.!

 

[Getoothachopper]

its good to see that we are trying to replicate the sirona results rather than raise the bar and do something better. because nothing makes a dentist more happy than to be able to send his or her case to us for manufacture and have the ability to pay more for something which they in their mind could do themselves ,well done guys you have just been sironaded. why dont we just become sironist rather than ceramists.do you honestly think by doing what sirona does you are going to get their business.all sirona is going to do is say to the dentists is i told you so. Ill see if i can invent some more sirona words for you to use in your marketing im sure sirona wont mind.!

'Sironaded !!!!!!!!!' Ha Ha , Brilliant.

 

[labtek]

Respectfully, Speed sintering is available with no compromise. I have seen the data from test results from both Dental Direkt and Amann Girrbach. The DD zirconia lost about 31MPa flexural strength in the speed cycle. AG lost a little less. Translucency was dead on with the AG and a tiny bit more opaque with the DD. I would say it is clinically insignificant and undetectable by eye.
I have also seen hundreds of single unit crowns that look identical to long cycles. At CAP we are running speed cycles 3 times a day in our Dekema furnace. This cycle shows no ill effect with a 2:45 sintering program in the Dekema 674 sintering furnace. The capacity for the speed cycle is reduced to 15 single units in one open tray. Dental Direkt and Dekema spent much time and money to get the cycle and properties of the zirconia to be equal to the long cycle.
Once DD accomplished this Amann Girrbach also did the same project with Dekema and got an AG cycle worked out. Again, the furnace capacity is reduced from 50-60 to 15 single units only. They also tested the smaller Dekema 664 and got a 2-hour program, max cap 12 units.
I can't imagine the Cerec 15 minute cycle really sisters a unit currently.

Bob,
This zirconia market is changing daily. as of Today, August 22, 2017
If you were just starting in zirconia, which sintering oven and which zirconia would you use. All you have is a 51d milling machine and 3shape software and you need to buy a 1. sintering oven and 2. zirconia for full contour posteriors when strength is required. 3. zirconia for anteriors and esthetic duplication of a vita classic shade guide

 

[BobCDT]

Bob,
This zirconia market is changing daily. as of Today, August 22, 2017
If you were just starting in zirconia, which sintering oven and which zirconia would you use. All you have is a 51d milling machine and 3shape software and you need to buy a 1. sintering oven and 2. zirconia for full contour posteriors when strength is required. 3. zirconia for anteriors and esthetic duplication of a vita classic shade guide

How big is your lab and how many units a day are you producing?

 

[labtek]

How big is your lab and how many units a day are you producing?

THe goal would be to do 20 units per day. All zirconia materials. full contour zr and big bridge zr, etc. 1/2 to 3/4 th would be full contour

 

[BobCDT]

THe goal would be to do 20 units per day. All zirconia materials. full contour zr and big bridge zr, etc. 1/2 to 3/4 th would be full contour

I think you are on the right on the edge as to going with a pre-shaded vs. white with colorants. I would probably suggest Amann Girrback multi FX for the 600 MPa material for interiors. This product is really beautiful, you get two shades form each disc and it can be speed fires. For posteriors, I may go with a white disc and coloring kit as the esthetics are not as critical and this would help reduce inventory cost. If you want a multi shaded disc for posteriors I would think Katana ML would work well. If you want to reduce the inventory, I would go with Dental Direct Bio ZX2 or Zirlux white as they are both cost effective and have matching coloring kits formulated specifically for these white discs.
For sintering, if you want to get into sub 3-hour cycles I would go Diekema, probably the 674 (large). There is a smaller furnace, 664 that has all the same functionality but the muffle size (75MM) eliminates the possibility of sintering a full arch. If you feel you can live with 8-hour sintering cycles, I would save a few bucks and go with the Shenpaz. Sintra. This furnace has been around for almost 10 years and is a workhorse. I would not underestimate the value of a sub 3-hour sintering cycle when making this decision.
If you go with the Diekema, I would suggest the Bio ZX2 zirconia for your high strength material as it has been approved for the 3-hour cycle. If you go with the Sintra all of the high strength material mentioned will suit you well.
Hope this helps,

 

[labtek]

I think you are on the right on the edge as to going with a pre-shaded vs. white with colorants. I would probably suggest Amann Girrback multi FX for the 600 MPa material for interiors. This product is really beautiful, you get two shades form each disc and it can be speed fires. For posteriors, I may go with a white disc and coloring kit as the esthetics are not as critical and this would help reduce inventory cost. If you want a multi shaded disc for posteriors I would think Katana ML would work well. If you want to reduce the inventory, I would go with Dental Direct Bio ZX2 or Zirlux white as they are both cost effective and have matching coloring kits formulated specifically for these white discs.
For sintering, if you want to get into sub 3-hour cycles I would go Diekema, probably the 674 (large). There is a smaller furnace, 664 that has all the same functionality but the muffle size (75MM) eliminates the possibility of sintering a full arch. If you feel you can live with 8-hour sintering cycles, I would save a few bucks and go with the Shenpaz. Sintra. This furnace has been around for almost 10 years and is a workhorse. I would not underestimate the value of a sub 3-hour sintering cycle when making this decision.
If you go with the Diekema, I would suggest the Bio ZX2 zirconia for your high strength material as it has been approved for the 3-hour cycle. If you go with the Sintra all of the high strength material mentioned will suit you well.
Hope this helps,

Thank you Bob, you are always helpful.

does cap/zahn sell the bio zx2 anymore?
Is the cube x hs and cube x ml available yet?? have you seen these products?

 

[BobCDT]

Thank you Bob, you are always helpful.

does cap/zahn sell the bio zx2 anymore?
Is the cube x hs and cube x ml available yet?? have you seen these products?

yes