What to look for when deciding

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NZClinician

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Hi everyone, I'm new and really been enjoying some really interesting conversations on here and thought I'd ask something and get your opinions.

I am thinking of investing in a scanner, but want to make sure I get the best for my needs. I intend to scan and design frameworks primarily. I'll send them out for printing/casting (that's another subject) What I need to know is
1. what to look for when comparing
2. Recommendations and why from your experience, and
3. Future proofing as much one can considering the ever changing technology.

Thank you in advance for all your help
Brent


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Sevan P

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1. Well how much do you want to spend?
2. Do you want to pay a yearly license fee?

Your options are 3shape D710 scanner this will do way more then you need and isn't going to be outdated soon. Or you can go with a DOF or Medit scanner and go Exocad. Not sure which scanners for Exo but Medit would be my choice.

Exo No yearly fee & 3shape yearly fee. Both will do everything you need.

How big is your operation? One man, 8 techs or 25 techs?

But regardless of your choice please make sure to buy from a reputable re-seller that has great support, cheap price on gear seems to be followed with cheap support. So don't cut that corner. Ever!
 
CoolHandLuke

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to directly answer your questions,

1. focusing on scanners is a comparison in what kind of underwear is appropriate for you. the scanner is where digitizing starts and you need it to adapt to you more than you need it to do anything else. there are many technologies out there, so finding one with good software baked in, good support if you need help, and quality output is a must. generally though the industry standard of stl or 3ml is as future proof as youll get for a few more years.

2. recommendations: Medit, Degree of Freedom, or Steinbichler all make good white light scanners. 3shape's laser light scanners may be slower but they are built like workhorses. buying a trios to use as a scanner may be also acceptable in many situations.

3. what futureproofing means right now is buying something Open, as in it outputs a file that isn't proprietary format, and can be used by all other CAD programs. stl is the current industry standard, even for 3d work outside of dental - for all kinds of design and manufacturing with the exception of architecture. so stl output is pretty crucial. the systems of the future however, will be using 3ml format. this is to rectify the problems faced by stl format (and there are a few to speak of) so down the road you will want a company supporting your scanner that can bring about those changes. this is why white light scanner for you might be a better option than laser light. 3shape's d800 series has the ability to capture certain colours of texture on the models you scan, but it is limited, and doesnt always give you what you want to see. but most white light scanners can capture colours without issue - colour scanning being part of the transition from stl to 3ml. trios kind of flubbs this colour scan with its own xml based texture acquisition and it works, but its not entirely an open option. porting trios data to exocad for example, you will lose colour. but thats an exocad limitation.

hope i made some sense.

best of luck!
 
Restorationlab

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to directly answer your questions,

1. focusing on scanners is a comparison in what kind of underwear is appropriate for you. the scanner is where digitizing starts and you need it to adapt to you more than you need it to do anything else. there are many technologies out there, so finding one with good software baked in, good support if you need help, and quality output is a must. generally though the industry standard of stl or 3ml is as future proof as youll get for a few more years.

2. recommendations: Medit, Degree of Freedom, or Steinbichler all make good white light scanners. 3shape's laser light scanners may be slower but they are built like workhorses. buying a trios to use as a scanner may be also acceptable in many situations.

3. what futureproofing means right now is buying something Open, as in it outputs a file that isn't proprietary format, and can be used by all other CAD programs. stl is the current industry standard, even for 3d work outside of dental - for all kinds of design and manufacturing with the exception of architecture. so stl output is pretty crucial. the systems of the future however, will be using 3ml format. this is to rectify the problems faced by stl format (and there are a few to speak of) so down the road you will want a company supporting your scanner that can bring about those changes. this is why white light scanner for you might be a better option than laser light. 3shape's d800 series has the ability to capture certain colours of texture on the models you scan, but it is limited, and doesnt always give you what you want to see. but most white light scanners can capture colours without issue - colour scanning being part of the transition from stl to 3ml. trios kind of flubbs this colour scan with its own xml based texture acquisition and it works, but its not entirely an open option. porting trios data to exocad for example, you will lose colour. but thats an exocad limitation.

hope i made some sense.

best of luck!

I read your response with great interest. I am also in the market to purchase a lab scanner and have been considering the DOF or Medit. I have not heard of this 3ml format. Can you explain it in more detail? Which machines use this format? I will be using the scanner for C&B and implants and also want a machine that will not be obsolete in a few years.
 
CoolHandLuke

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pardon me its not 3ml its 3mf

anyway its a format designed for 3d printing that makes it easier to properly slice a curve for printers using slicing technology. contained in the file are its intrinsic attributes of material properties, colour, and other things. take a look.http://3mf.io/specification/

what machines use it currently? great question. im not sure. but if youve ever needed to use stl repair software like meshlab then 3mf may help alleviate errors like open triangles found in most parts on websites like thingverse or brightsquid. open triangles is the biggest 3d printing issue raised by the stl format. it is one reason 3shape loves to work in dcm mode.
 
Restorationlab

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Whoa! Think I just stepped off the cliff! Hmmmm2 I won't be using a 3D printer with my system so maybe I don't have to concern myself with this format. Thanks.
 
CoolHandLuke

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Whoa! Think I just stepped off the cliff! Hmmmm2 I won't be using a 3D printer with my system so maybe I don't have to concern myself with this format. Thanks.
maybe not, but 3mf will be the format used to design a frame, and design its porcelain superstructure and combine them together in the same single file, which evenutally will be used when you 3d print both materials in the same printer.
 
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I guess my question was based on what to look for / be aware of when comparing. What is old technology vs what's rising better technology. Cost is a concern, but only after scanner technology, accuracy and durability. I really don't like licences, if I pay for a unit I don't want restrictions on time or how many units I can scan. But considering market place I might have to swallow that one.


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maybe not, but 3mf will be the format used to design a frame, and design its porcelain superstructure and combine them together in the same single file, which evenutally will be used when you 3d print both materials in the same printer.

Wow, thanks for taking the time to put all that info down for us. I think I understood it :) but I have a million more. You certainly helped me focus.

When I posted the Q, I was confused as to which imaging technology was the best or which was old technology or where it was going. And you did touch on this a little. There are so many different technologies around though. Eg White light? Blue LED? Red laser? Strip lighting? Or even Phase Shifting Optical Triangulation!? I'm sure there's others. Also number of cameras. How important is this? When we talk cameras what MPix do we need? I'm looking for metal frameworks, but the ability to do bars would be a nice to have. How good are the sensors on these cameras? On a practical level; to what detail do I realistically need for the Jobs i described above?

I appreciate you advice on file formats too. What's open and closed formats. Ive heard the terms, but didn't understand them. 3mf seems the future, but all the manufacturers talk about stl. I'm wary of the closed source SW, thanks for highlighting them, as I hope not to be locked into a particular printer/miller service. Licences are also a down for me. If I spend all this money I do not want them dictating time/scan limitations on me.

Are these the only areas I should be looking into? Are there questions/areas I haven't asked about that I should know when making comparisons.




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Also another aspect I think would be good is if these companies allowed my clients to receive my scanned image so they could 'design in their office' and send back to me for finishing. Obviously not for all clients, but some do have detailed prescriptions they would like more control over. It could be cloud based so the scanner company could charge a licence fee to use their SW IP. It would also ensure I kept control over manufacturer.


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BobCDT

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1. Well how much do you want to spend?
2. Do you want to pay a yearly license fee? Ever!
Yes, these are two factors. However, "Do you want to pay a license fee?" iThis s also about support. fee There are really just two viable solutions for CAD. Many more for scanners. Exocad & 3Shape, both will do what you are looking for. 3Shape will likely be slightly more future proof. You need to look in the mirror and say if I run into a problem designing am I going to be able to figure out how to fix it. This could be related to hardware, software or even networking. If you feel you want to have access to nearly immediate,quality tech support 3Shape is probably a better choice and the fees can be invaluable. In fact, I would say most labs using CAD use the support. We have taken in tens of thousands of phone calls and have now built up a tech support staff of 31 full time people with a few more hires on the way.
 
2thm8kr

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Exocad & 3Shape, both will do what you are looking for. 3Shape will likely be slightly more future proof.
The future is in fully open technology and software not pseudo-open.
 
BobCDT

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Both produce an open format STL file of the design for import into open CAM, mills and a printer of your choice.
 
CoolHandLuke

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Wow, thanks for taking the time to put all that info down for us. I think I understood it :) but I have a million more. You certainly helped me focus.

When I posted the Q, I was confused as to which imaging technology was the best or which was old technology or where it was going. And you did touch on this a little. There are so many different technologies around though. Eg White light? Blue LED? Red laser? Strip lighting? Or even Phase Shifting Optical Triangulation!? I'm sure there's others. Also number of cameras. How important is this? When we talk cameras what MPix do we need? I'm looking for metal frameworks, but the ability to do bars would be a nice to have. How good are the sensors on these cameras? On a practical level; to what detail do I realistically need for the Jobs i described above?

I appreciate you advice on file formats too. What's open and closed formats. Ive heard the terms, but didn't understand them. 3mf seems the future, but all the manufacturers talk about stl. I'm wary of the closed source SW, thanks for highlighting them, as I hope not to be locked into a particular printer/miller service. Licences are also a down for me. If I spend all this money I do not want them dictating time/scan limitations on me.

Are these the only areas I should be looking into? Are there questions/areas I haven't asked about that I should know when making comparisons.




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what you are asking seems more of a question of what company has the scanner that beats them all - which is a fallacy in itself. there really isn't one that is best. there are advantages and disadvantages to everything.

advantages of white light - speed. advantages of red laser - cost

you need a scanner that fits your budget, so table that as priority criterion 1.

from there determining what will work for you is a matter of understanding the scanner technology, and its various limitations. red laser and blue light scanners need powder application when scanning any sort of metal, or translucent object. so if you are scanning a ti abutment, spray will be required. scanning a tissue replica for producing a ti abutment, also needs spray.

white light mostly doesnt need that. but scan spray will help reduce noise in the scan, irrespective of the technology at play.

whatever your needs are for designing it doesnt make a whole lot of difference what scanner you use to get there. what works for zirconia, works for metal, temps, and tons of others. what does impact your ability to work on various materials is the opennness of the scanner, cad and cam. an all-in-one scanner such as the Nobel g2, or DentalWings, really hampers your ability to work with multple partners. Nobel and DW are examples of partly open scanners. while they don't always scan in a proprietary format, they can be locked into a manufacturer-specific format that (it is assumed) nobody else can work with.

what you seem to be looking for is a scanner, cad, and cam that use no proprietary format but can work together and each unit within this system be completely replaceable or upgradeable.

you are in luck, as there are two ways to approach this.

1, look at getting all open technology. so a Medit scanner or example, while it comes with its own software its optional. adding to it an open design suite like Exocad (whereinwhich you can purchase a scan module to overwrite the Medit software if you so choose). and adding to that the open CAM and milling/printing machine more or less will dictate this. Medit and Exocad are a combination that is highly flexible, great accuracy, great dependability, and most people that offer it can offer good deals. Exocad is extremely popular for this reason.

2, you look to a single company for your whole kit. lets get down to brass tacks, i'm advocating for only one company here, 3shape. yes, they are expensive. yes, they are worth it (mostly)(usually)(kinda)(well i think so anyway)

lets face the nuts and bolts here, in the past you would really need to consider the pros and cons to get good quality stuff out of your scanner cad and cam. because scanners were only good to 100um, and milling machines could only produce quality at speed down to 50um. over time this has greatly increased - now most scanners are 8-15um, and most mills are capable of single digit microns precision (even if that's a misnomer all by itself).

the worst bar you can make today will be plus-minus less than 50um over an arch, or less than 10um in any single area.

you almost can't screw this up. does that mean you should look at the cheapest options only? absolutely not. just realize that the difference between a 10,000$ scanner and a 30,000$ scanner is about 20um accuracy. the difference between a 50k$ milling machine and a 150k$ machine is not so easily defined.
 
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BobCDT

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Yes really, for instance, today with 3Shape you can do implant surgical guide planning and guide design. You can do a setup of a single denture. 3Sahpe has an FDA cleared design platform for custom abutments. There may be more. I'm not totally up on Exo.
 
CoolHandLuke

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implant planning and guide design has been a thing in exocad for a while. 2th has done several cases.
 
zero_zero

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. 3Sahpe has an FDA cleared design platform for custom abutments

FDA has no relevance outside of the states...it was created to favor the big players sidelining the small professionals (for your own safety of course)....;)
 
rkm rdt

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Back when I started,I never heard of exocad here. there were no resellers that I was aware of.
3 shape was the best then and I had choice.I still know of only one reseller in Toronto right now for exocad.
 

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