Zirkon Zahn M1 wet heavy - for CoCr and Titan?

[Tramp]

Hi,

Could you tell me if this machine is good for CoCr milling and Titan?

I read in brochure that is has spindle motors 200w:
http://www.zirkonzahn.com/assets/files/brochueren/EN-Brochure-CADCAM-OP-web.pdf page 56

How such weak spindle can mill in hard metals?

VHS machines have 600w, imes icore for CoCr and titan is 1 000 w, so how Zirkon Zahn is doing it?

I'm really confused....

http://www.zirkonzahn.com/en/cad-cam-systems/milling-unit-m1

 

[primus]

My HAAS has 3700watt or 5HP spindle.

200w is kinda weak, but I guess possible for the occasional unit of metal if you go slow enough with tiny tools?

 

[k2 Ceramic Studio]

I was there at the weekend and they showed us both milling units, they milled some full contour shells and a bar down to fixture level from CoCr and the fit was fantastic, like you say the spindle power does seem low but it does work with there own strategies.

 

[Drizzt]

Still I wouldn't buy such a small machine for metal milling . Pretty cool establishment they have there at Gais right Pete ?

 

[k2 Ceramic Studio]

Yep it is very coooool, have never seen a lab set up like it, but I was most impressed by the transparency of the company. You want to see Zr production then they show it to you, the same with the R&D department. Very impressed. Italian style in every building.....

 

[grantoz]

I saw the prototype of the m1 oct 2012 in Gais I had a conversation with them about milling metal .they said that its a machine that isn't suited for high volume output of metal bars its a machine designed to do all things in low volume .if you want to do higher volume buy the m5 much more robust and easier to service.Saying that I still get all my bars milled by nobel and I own an m5.I feel that any bench top mill will wear quickly trying to mill cocr etc.When new the fits will be fantastic as the software is 1st class after time not so much as milling metal takes its toll.

 

[Tramp]

But m5 also have 200w spindle, this is the same spindle as in M5, exactly the same as i asked zirkon zahn.

So i think it's not good option to buy it. Better will be imes or yena dental for CoCr and titan milling. Am i right?

 

[cadfan]

The normal M 5 is 100 watt the heavy is 200 watt the vhf is 170 to 240 max the 5 ax vhf is 300 watt to 600 max so maybe times are changing .But ill try next time on the mini.A few years ago people thought you need big horses and now take a look at the DWX 4.For large production I would not myself to leave for the time- but keep an eye on it.

 

[Tramp]

200 wat ZirkonZahn is milling CoCr and titan.
300-600 vhf is milling only CoCr. That is crazy! Why not Titan also...

 

[cadfan]

200 wat ZirkonZahn is milling CoCr and titan.
300-600 vhf is milling only CoCr. That is crazy! Why not Titan also...

Its a speciall dry milled CoCr ill think the VHF guys are every time one step behind !! they are no dental millers and sometimes a little bit stupid.To much resellers with no brain .

 

[DentalCreators by Venture]

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.449363668446417.94273.183153685067418&type=3

Dental Milling machine Dc 10 by Venture

 

[Terry Whitty]

200w is kinda weak, but I guess possible for the occasional unit of metal if you go slow enough with tiny tools?[/quote]

Yep.. metal seems a different ball game for sure.. and it seems the companies are trying to entice people with little metal "capable" machines.... for occasional work.. and fair enough...
If you want to do a lot of metal..get an appropriate mill.

 

[Terry Whitty]

My HAAS has 3700watt or 5HP spindle.


200w is kinda weak, but I guess possible for the occasional unit of metal if you go slow enough with tiny tools?

Yep.. metal seems a different ball game for sure.. and it seems the companies are trying to entice people with little metal "capable" machines.... for occasional work.. and fair enough...
If you want to do a lot of metal..get an appropriate mill.

 

[DMC]

Besides the watt or Horsepower rating, you need a beefy set of spindle bearings to accept the tremendous side-load of milling metal.

Otherwise your spindle life will be very piss-poor.

You need very very low T.I.R. (Total Indicated Runout) to have tools spinning as concentric as possible, otherwise tool-life will also be piss-poor beating only One side of the tool as it spins out of concentricity.

Roughing with little 2mm or even 2.5mm diameter ball tools is not profitable.

We use 4mm Torus shaped tools that have infinatly more life for roughing out metal, then go to 3mm torus to have roughing finished.

The tools are the same cost as the little 2mm balls, but last 10x longer~

Industrial tooling is required to make a profit. DMG, Roeders, Mikron, HAAS, etc... have this type of spindle/tooling.

This gives you the option to use any shank size you want for each tool. All tool could theoretically have different shank sizes.

This allows user to pick and choose the absolute best tool geometry at the best price. Not locked into just One shank size.

I recently found a Twist-style, drilling tool for under $0.50!!! Not kidding!! BUT the shank is only 1.5mm

We use this for drilling holes in Implants and Bars. I bought 100 of these tools for under $45 USD !!! LOL

Good luck trying to mill bars and abutments cheaper than me. Not going to happen with little mills. Not in 1000yrs.

So we go from 1.5mm collet all the way to 10mm collet if we want, and more to get the best tool for the job at the best price.

We even can use 1/4 or 1/8" Imperial (Standard) tooling.

 

[Terry Whitty]

Besides the watt or Horsepower rating, you need a beefy set of spindle bearings to accept the tremendous side-load of milling metal.

Otherwise your spindle life will be very piss-poor.

You need very very low T.I.R. (Total Indicated Runout) to have tools spinning as concentric as possible, otherwise tool-life will also be piss-poor beating only One side of the tool as it spins out of concentricity.

Roughing with little 2mm or even 2.5mm diameter ball tools is not profitable.

We use 4mm Torus shaped tools that have infinatly more life for roughing out metal, then go to 3mm torus to have roughing finished.

The tools are the same cost as the little 2mm balls, but last 10x longer~

Industrial tooling is required to make a profit. DMG, Roeders, Mikron, HAAS, etc... have this type of spindle/tooling.

This gives you the option to use any shank size you want for each tool. All tool could theoretically have different shank sizes.

This allows user to pick and choose the absolute best tool geometry at the best price. Not locked into just One shank size.

I recently found a Twist-style, drilling tool for under $0.50!!! Not kidding!! BUT the shank is only 1.5mm

We use this for drilling holes in Implants and Bars. I bought 100 of these tools for under $45 USD !!! LOL

Good luck trying to mill bars and abutments cheaper than me. Not going to happen with little mills. Not in 1000yrs.

So we go from 1.5mm collet all the way to 10mm collet if we want, and more to get the best tool for the job at the best price.

We even can use 1/4 or 1/8" Imperial (Standard) tooling.

I really love your posts, they are really informative, really .. until they get to the puffing chest part " Good luck trying to mill bars and abutments cheaper than me" .... yes you are the cheapest on the block by your own words...

But remember... SW_EP_1

"there is always a bigger fish"


or cheaper one....

 

[primus]

Good Morn Terry!

 

[Terry Whitty]

So who was arguing that point?

No one wants to put their nose to the grindstone to be the best.... a lost cause these days..but plenty still do try... they are here... (yes you are)
I agree 100% with you ( BTW you cannot have more than 100% its a finite capacity...but i understand the concept when you guys say " i gave 110 %" )
VALUE is king and it encompasses more than price and quality... SERVICE... these days is king and should have more focus than people give it.

Anyway... a small script... just for fun...or... well i got MOST of it from you....


Scott:

" i know everything , i know, I know, buy from me "

Prospective customer:

" Wow that's great"

Scott:

" Buy from me I can deliver, HAAS. spindle, rotary, tool, T.I R, yadda , yadda " ( customer head spinning at this point... LOL)

Prospective customer:

"You bet, i love Mr HAAS"

Scott:

" I am the cheapest at milling always will be, you can't beat me .... never , no way, ever, infinity and beyond, etc etc"

Prospective customer:

"Oh dear? ..yeah. I can't compete with the person i buy from, I might look elsewhere..."


Scott, after listening to Terry:

"I can show you how to make your laboratory give great value to your customers , become more profitable , and we offer the best service in the industry"

Customer:

"Where do i sign!"




Watch out folks ...out comes the horse whip..... YEEEE OW!








Boiled eggs are ok but raw not my cup of tea...of course if its in a cocktail ....

 

[primus]

Do you dream of me at night Terry?

I think you need another hobby besides worrying about me. LOL

Knitting, Crochet, or needle-point perhaps?

 

[Terry Whitty]

Nah mate just having fun... you know....

 

[technician]

200 or 500 watts we are talking torque here and its has all to do with the controller and the amps . A 200w spindle can be more powerful than a 500w.