Using a scanning wand on all on x cases possible now.

[Kaiser7100]

This product has been on the market for a few months. Friend of mine invented it and got it patented. Tests we have done has been flawless. Wanted to get honest thoughts on this and if it’s something your docs would be interested in? Check out the video in the link.

https://www.dwdigitaldental.com/

 

[Affinity]

Drs scan these with an open flap? or are you able to scan at tissue level too?

 

[Kaiser7100]

Drs scan these with an open flap? or are you able to scan at tissue level too?

You can scan tissue level as well.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

flawless

 

[Yoan]

This idea is good but feels outdated with photogrammetry being more and more used.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

This idea is good but feels outdated with photogrammetry being more and more used.

you understand IOS all still do photogrammetry right? effectively thats what all the scanners do even benchtop ones until you go back in time to 2008.

 

[Kaiser7100]

There’s another video for work flow below the scanning video. Please guys check that out too. Please critique harshly

 

[Kaiser7100]

flawless

Flawless is too strong. Nothing is perfect.

 

[Sevan P]

Soo many new ways to scan full arch with IO coming out its scary, From Tru abutments mini scan flag done with I phone to this. This will still fail if the user has no idea which is his ass and which is his head, Also the bigger object not really a fan of many,

 

[Yoan]

you understand IOS all still do photogrammetry right? effectively thats what all the scanners do even benchtop ones until you go back in time to 2008.

I'm not sure what you are saying.
If you are saying that IOS is actually doing photogrammetry, you are are actually wrong as photogrammetry requires multi cameras whereas most IOS scanners have one camera shooting through mirrors.

The only IOS that I know of that has multiple cameras is the new iTero (that is not even FDA cleared at the moment I write this message).
And still those 6 cameras do NOT do photogrammetry.

Now if this is not what you were saying I'm sorry for the useless answer.

 

[Yoan]

Soo many new ways to scan full arch with IO coming out its scary, From Tru abutments mini scan flag done with I phone to this. This will still fail if the user has no idea which is his ass and which is his head, Also the bigger object not really a fan of many,

I still think the IOS are in the right spot now.

Photogrammetry though is starting to become used more and more and brings such an amazing advancement to the restorative part. I mean modeless and no verification jig as been a dream for a longtime and IOS never have been able to bring that to the table . Until photogrammetry.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

I'm not sure what you are saying.
If you are saying that IOS is actually doing photogrammetry, you are are actually wrong as photogrammetry requires multi cameras whereas most IOS scanners have one camera shooting through mirrors.

The only IOS that I know of that has multiple cameras is the new iTero (that is not even FDA cleared at the moment I write this message).
And still those 6 cameras do NOT do photogrammetry.

Now if this is not what you were saying I'm sorry for the useless answer.

photogrammetry is done best with multiple cameras, yes.

but it can be done with a single camera.

Capture Images for Photogrammetry Using a Single Camera

docs.dataminesoftware.com

Single Camera Head Scanning | Photogrammetry

In this post I will be exploring a technique involving a more guerrilla approach to 3D scanning - single camera photogrammetry. I have recently come to learn how useful this technique is; it is cost effective and could be a life saver if you work professionally in the world of 3D scanning - read...

adamspring.co.uk

https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/282173/1-s2.0-S2212827115X00126/1-s2.0-S221282711500534X/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEND%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJIMEYCIQD68l1bKL29XJ6giOh7z%2FTkFuHnKRrIbe3IT3A5J41KYQIhAMBTGlZ3zZcbs6%2BAP6C8nM74bxXyGmt9w0eFsgksmZlcKrwFCNn%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEQBRoMMDU5MDAzNTQ2ODY1IgwYFJMr%2Bs%2BKzCTe0TcqkAXxrXwdjAhLbbdRKru6%2BpGGHb1NaIGH1WIa72hi10nTMRFLAVW%2B01dmuoNDXuSeFohDBx6ftna4rJHOwzarsL9RNEW7%2BeIXPw1%2BZiHtP5l3LAsGvvc8xElUJZ4nxAuwwmKBZwlhTi5tFrACFfFzolccnmhOR9TFo3QegzxoAA%2Fitdgfa4%2FOWH39Qi%2FebxpbgC89IpPOZCZyg7IoO03TWYBYZaXZtgA8V0pEC%2BaWpxAI8DJ90EC4ukU3UMRv%2F1NP%2Bck3Kp1cYknGvnEErWQ337MIBoqvQLRuBRJDJR1E0BIiBJG3DSASqLR0j3IxO%2F%2FDAKfxKykf3SzVwqBbZJKMPfS6OgDD0UQrIwSHwJ%2BUNaEJ16TTUvsqp7MOZOKfnnNxwi%2FIx48NSm5g3HX7jdEj96D5sngoRfoAl0T8G%2FjKlTZYM8Yt4Jo955qFcHaA6%2BeUFG3G4LwrJ2ahhnVxlspTG95NVtnPG9YrXgm0c%2FxD1yLdsqGFRwAdz%2B5UCfkzNsuPJnZt1kSWkJcuzjabvMGAInHKSKhhnfDpH0o%2BGk%2Fcpyq39BuvUZZIqxWtKy8VsBJ2upNiPRdZJHIjJBDGZPLE91clnrUEZSsRaMHnKOlww5wiLf%2FaKnf4vUnwIDjwYatWJxKHlN%2F84GpePDlLmkK%2F3F0mxSQ5KnFXrwVZpjNzV2iKugZ3GAesOsyPesRLzC916VJYtYR7LXVk2ygUwwDL2cDZtgqAGDmvyQoFwyKtI9SC8ZOQIqmZYsIWi9MfAmCN362HuBSVIeeIlzZwu4ZY5dliS9OosxWyKCJA1tUdmOQd1sCAGCaoYugG1kbiWHkAb2jpgEhuc9hK1asW8z%2BhANA9j4pbjDy3OyGZ2EEvqZATMTDdxOGvBjqwAdGRat%2FAMX5u8RfUd7hYz1GGOI1iJznMyBsg0F6OGROkJ7CUDMX%2FstGZiTG387xseeZURLE7MhaQmH3w3yybxBNOPmAJs9%2F4vBscHWRvimb2tJZD%2Fv0%2B0IoCX2uUua4zJyzsaKsPJMGyxrNASs2v%2FZr8ZCeEgvUu0mDAnh5%2BKhDJQaSaILSN0lkQCqKxMNS0Cup2dVETKlPlvmDbf0nYvqec2sNYAGFb7XS37p7ZQPQS&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20240318T163547Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTYQIAZTPFP%2F20240318%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=24458d467b1fc8aadd7e7e7aeef26fb0d10842eb9b56b7d280ba7a24904a2f79&hash=426f1d0bc2941e72969b5419a3cced8318b6d86d366f9b721ebdbe6d90bfc8e0&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S221282711500534X&tid=spdf-9e8a5278-51f6-4207-98a2-efd4f22c917b&sid=baad13af70fd724b415a7dc-bec70e9c2440gxrqa&type=client&tsoh=d3d3LnNjaWVuY2VkaXJlY3QuY29t&ua=19055c535551075c5603&rr=8666a34d5fa961fd&cc=ca

 

[Yoan]

photogrammetry is done best with multiple cameras, yes.

but it can be done with a single camera.

Capture Images for Photogrammetry Using a Single Camera

docs.dataminesoftware.com

Single Camera Head Scanning | Photogrammetry

In this post I will be exploring a technique involving a more guerrilla approach to 3D scanning - single camera photogrammetry. I have recently come to learn how useful this technique is; it is cost effective and could be a life saver if you work professionally in the world of 3D scanning - read...

adamspring.co.uk

https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/282173/1-s2.0-S2212827115X00126/1-s2.0-S221282711500534X/main.pdf?X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEND%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCXVzLWVhc3QtMSJIMEYCIQD68l1bKL29XJ6giOh7z%2FTkFuHnKRrIbe3IT3A5J41KYQIhAMBTGlZ3zZcbs6%2BAP6C8nM74bxXyGmt9w0eFsgksmZlcKrwFCNn%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEQBRoMMDU5MDAzNTQ2ODY1IgwYFJMr%2Bs%2BKzCTe0TcqkAXxrXwdjAhLbbdRKru6%2BpGGHb1NaIGH1WIa72hi10nTMRFLAVW%2B01dmuoNDXuSeFohDBx6ftna4rJHOwzarsL9RNEW7%2BeIXPw1%2BZiHtP5l3LAsGvvc8xElUJZ4nxAuwwmKBZwlhTi5tFrACFfFzolccnmhOR9TFo3QegzxoAA%2Fitdgfa4%2FOWH39Qi%2FebxpbgC89IpPOZCZyg7IoO03TWYBYZaXZtgA8V0pEC%2BaWpxAI8DJ90EC4ukU3UMRv%2F1NP%2Bck3Kp1cYknGvnEErWQ337MIBoqvQLRuBRJDJR1E0BIiBJG3DSASqLR0j3IxO%2F%2FDAKfxKykf3SzVwqBbZJKMPfS6OgDD0UQrIwSHwJ%2BUNaEJ16TTUvsqp7MOZOKfnnNxwi%2FIx48NSm5g3HX7jdEj96D5sngoRfoAl0T8G%2FjKlTZYM8Yt4Jo955qFcHaA6%2BeUFG3G4LwrJ2ahhnVxlspTG95NVtnPG9YrXgm0c%2FxD1yLdsqGFRwAdz%2B5UCfkzNsuPJnZt1kSWkJcuzjabvMGAInHKSKhhnfDpH0o%2BGk%2Fcpyq39BuvUZZIqxWtKy8VsBJ2upNiPRdZJHIjJBDGZPLE91clnrUEZSsRaMHnKOlww5wiLf%2FaKnf4vUnwIDjwYatWJxKHlN%2F84GpePDlLmkK%2F3F0mxSQ5KnFXrwVZpjNzV2iKugZ3GAesOsyPesRLzC916VJYtYR7LXVk2ygUwwDL2cDZtgqAGDmvyQoFwyKtI9SC8ZOQIqmZYsIWi9MfAmCN362HuBSVIeeIlzZwu4ZY5dliS9OosxWyKCJA1tUdmOQd1sCAGCaoYugG1kbiWHkAb2jpgEhuc9hK1asW8z%2BhANA9j4pbjDy3OyGZ2EEvqZATMTDdxOGvBjqwAdGRat%2FAMX5u8RfUd7hYz1GGOI1iJznMyBsg0F6OGROkJ7CUDMX%2FstGZiTG387xseeZURLE7MhaQmH3w3yybxBNOPmAJs9%2F4vBscHWRvimb2tJZD%2Fv0%2B0IoCX2uUua4zJyzsaKsPJMGyxrNASs2v%2FZr8ZCeEgvUu0mDAnh5%2BKhDJQaSaILSN0lkQCqKxMNS0Cup2dVETKlPlvmDbf0nYvqec2sNYAGFb7XS37p7ZQPQS&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Date=20240318T163547Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAQ3PHCVTYQIAZTPFP%2F20240318%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Signature=24458d467b1fc8aadd7e7e7aeef26fb0d10842eb9b56b7d280ba7a24904a2f79&hash=426f1d0bc2941e72969b5419a3cced8318b6d86d366f9b721ebdbe6d90bfc8e0&host=68042c943591013ac2b2430a89b270f6af2c76d8dfd086a07176afe7c76c2c61&pii=S221282711500534X&tid=spdf-9e8a5278-51f6-4207-98a2-efd4f22c917b&sid=baad13af70fd724b415a7dc-bec70e9c2440gxrqa&type=client&tsoh=d3d3LnNjaWVuY2VkaXJlY3QuY29t&ua=19055c535551075c5603&rr=8666a34d5fa961fd&cc=ca

I guess it's time to be picky then, these article don't relate about photogrammetry but stereophotogrammetry or in the case of the second article you mentioned polyoscopy. these are 2 different things.

Now that second article was very impressive and these 2 people went the extra mile to get accurate data, but in our case which is, in the end, related to dental and not a broader subject, stereophotogrammetry achieved via intra oral scanner ISN'T accurate enough to produce a long span restoration such as hybrid restoration. (even with the current techniques of bridging implants to avoid the IOS to loose track during scanning).

I know a lot of people are saying "I've been doing it for a while an no problem whatsoever " and that might be right in a few cases, but the literature really shows that if you restore full mouth only based on an IOS then you just don't understand the inaccuracy behind it.

And here comes iCAM from iMETRIC. An ACTUAL photogrammetry system with 4 cameras calibrated.
This system is ACTUALLY taking photogrammetry data and delivering a precision that, in my opinion rivals or even outshines the regular verification jig

I hope this time that I've been clear in what I tried to explain earlier.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

right, now you understand why i snickered as i did earlier when op said Flawless.

 

[TheLabGuy]

Anything is possible, but if a Doc asks me today, I say "NO"!!! Have to use optisplint with I/O or photogrammetry device or impression.

 

[Affinity]

There are quite a few insta famous docs doing AOX cases with primescan etc. Do you think they just modify their cement gaps to get a large span bridge to fit, or do you think it just doesnt fit? Either way its the Drs baby at that point if they are doing it themselves, I can see why a lab wouldnt want anything to do with the same workflow.
Theres a nice used imetric on ebay right now.. seems big in Europe where they innovate these techniques, but not so much over here.

 

[CoolHandLuke]

There are quite a few insta famous docs doing AOX cases with primescan etc. Do you think they just modify their cement gaps to get a large span bridge to fit, or do you think it just doesnt fit? Either way its the Drs baby at that point if they are doing it themselves, I can see why a lab wouldnt want anything to do with the same workflow.
Theres a nice used imetric on ebay right now.. seems big in Europe where they innovate these techniques, but not so much over here.

innovation is expensive, the usa would rather import already developed solutions than develop and have it all cleared by regulatory red tape.

 

[grantoz]

ive got guys that scan full arch 4-6 implants with trios 3 they fit perfectly it comes down to scanning technique.

 

[JonnyLathe]

right, now you understand why i snickered as i did earlier when op said Flawless.

Even optisplint isn't accurate enough with IOS. I've done optisplint workflows with IOS and desktop scanners and the desktop scan is noticeably more accurate. I'll stick to photogrammetry if I want to go modelless IMO.

A lot of these new IOS systems can be passive if the scanner is good and the technique is flawless, but if I were to put bets on what ends up being consistent I'd hedge my bets on photogrammetry over any IOS option any day of the week.

A printed arch will lead many to believe something is passive when it truly isn't, and you don't find out until the zirc breaks in the mouth or the bar doesn't fit.

 

[LarryRDC]

No matter what the workflow, I insist on my clients using the Optisplint. I never let them scan the jig. I have them send it to me, then I scan it with my Medit T710. And, I always pour a patty model with the analogs to verify the fit. They can scan the scan caps and everything else.
Even then, with printing prototypes, milling the ZI, and bars, there are variables that might require some "tweaking" to make it just right to fit the scan jig model. (And, of course there's the variable of them F-ing up the the jig, but then it's in their ball park..... )

Technology's nice....when it works