MCXL INLAB SYSTEM - Pro's & cons

[LifeLike]

This is my first post here so be gentle.
I have just purchased a new INLAB MCXL system , blue cam , new MCXL unit,
even purchased the INFire Speed Furnace,
Now before everyone here tells me how I am, let me say this . I am a small ( three person ) lab . I have been in buisness for twenty six years , like some of you other old timers I have seen systems come and go. I have several on the shelves that worked until the next great thing came along.I used to be a medium size lab ( 15 -20 person ) and started scaling down about ten years ago to just relax and deal only with Drs. I really liked instead of all of them just to keep emplyees paid. Any way I digress.
I know I need to go Digital , been farming out work for years , some went to members on this forum. I need to be able to scan and mill in house now. I also know that the INLAB is no where near capable for the kind of work that some of you who are milling for other labs need. I need a capable unit for about 10 -15 units a day in several different materials,and the INLAB seemed to fit the bill. Also can be used with several of my Drs. who have cerec.
My problems are with some of the fits, now I have been lurking here for months so we dont need to rehash and start just Flamin for Flamin sake.
For the most part everything fits well under 10X scopes with some adjusting. I have very good Drs. and get very good preps. Been doin this for 26 years , made my real money, now can pick Drs. who really know what their doin.
That bein said . I still not satisfied with fits overall. My question is can I use a 3SHAPE scanner with this system and get better results than I am getting overall. I have a full year to return any part or the whole system if need be , can I replace with something else that is better for the same money or are their some things that I can do to make what I have better overall. Zirc fits fine , e-max is mostly hit but some miss, same with empress cad, any legitimate help is appreciated.Dont need to just get beat up ( ole lady does enough of that) Thanks.

 

[doug]

Welcome aboard. I have no comment about the Sirona systems. If it works for you, that's great! I have the Straumann scanner and am waiting for the NEW unit to arrive so I can then wait for the new software release in mid-year. Mark Jackson has a lot of good information as well as others here.

 

[charles007]

Welcome aboard, I will try not to leave bruises or hit under the belt.... Send it back now...... Visit a lab or milling lab, then you will see what I've seen and change your mind !
Couple of questions to think about.
Why would you want to buy a better scanner that has advanced software to what you have, and keep the MCXL ? if it would work.... Then you have a better scanner with a cheaper made miller for more money than buying several other brands of systems.
Why mill emax that cost so much more, and not equal to pressing in fits. How many blocks have you wasted already ?
How old is the MCXL ? don't you think they might update soon...
Do you want to buy milling materials that always cost more per unit.

I finely received my Delcam scanner last week and don't have a mill yet, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
What I have seen first hand....... many units that didn't need any adjusting to seat using a 3Shape and Delcam scanner. The lab spent about 2 to less than 5 minutes thinning down the margins, etc. Don't know if this is the norm or not, that's what I've seen in labs.

I don't know how the occlusion compares with Cerec to 3Shape or other scanners. You will see that several scanners are coming out with Virtual Articulator in their software.

There are at least 3 systems that I found that could be bought for less than 100k that are far superior the MCXL, "dry mills".
Laserdenta might have a wet mill coming out next year at a low price to mill emax ,if your sold on milling emax.
If you decide to keep your InLAB, I would bring in someone like Lee Culp to work with you for a day or two.
Your problems with fits, are normal by every inlab lab I asked, and even said by a tech that spend years lecturing for Cerec and Vita .
Buying one system that suppose to mill everything sounds sweet on the surface. Once you spend one hour in a lab with a 3shape, etc scanner and an industrial miller, you will want to send that inlab back fast .

Charles

 

[paulg100]

"e-max is mostly hit but some miss, same with empress cad"

thanks for confirming that the blue cam makes little difference.

Youve bought a jack of all trades, master of none, so guess you have to live with the variables or buy a specialist mill.

I think unless you are prepared to stump up big bucks for something like a roeders, you are not gonna find a mill that will handle lots of different materials (wet & dry) properly.

And like's been said on many posts before, there is no way on earth you will ever see a return on your money with the big $ mills, with a 3 man lab.

 

[LifeLike]

Thanks for the replies , and not just throwing dirt at me.
Charles007 , I like the 3Shape scanner , but as PaulG100 eluded to there is no way I can expect any return on a big specialized mill. So what I am trying to do is get specifics as to smaller mills that can acomplish what I can do now as I do quite a bit of e-max and zirc for about the same total money which I can do in my INLAB now.
As for how Old is the system, brand new latest and greatest may be the first newer/ reworked milling machine in service. As I said Fits are not terrrible on e-max or empress but I will spend 5-10 minutes to get a good fit , zirc seems to be fine as of now both copings and full contour. Was just wondering if someone found a way to make it fit better so it will only take me 3- 5 minutes to get a good fit , Like maybe using the 3Shape with the MCXL.I still have lots of time to return , but would really like to make this work for me.I will keep playin with parameters and hopefully I will get there.

 

[Mark Jackson]

Welcome.

For a lab your size, the CEREC is probably a good fit. Hopefully you are in a boutique setting where you can get enough money for your work to justify the added costs associated with using that system. I find the unit a little cumbersome and the materials overpriced, but again, it's quite capable if you recognize it's limitations.

My technicians didn't like the software compared to the other systems we had in place at the time. Sometimes it helps to NOT have so many systems that you focus on the shortcomings in each one, because they are amplified by the strengths found in others.

Once you own the system, it's best to just focus on how to optimize the usage, and not have buyers remorse. Easier said than done. The good thing about a 3Shape scanner and software is that every milling machine (or other stl device) in the world becomes yours.

I love my Cone Beam CT Scanner, but I look longingly at the J. Morita unit. I just wish it had a broader field of view...the grass is always greener....

 

[paulg100]

for emax your always gonna have thick bulky margins on onlays and inlays due to the problems with chipping below.4-.5mm.

This alone means alot of finishing, but this is a problem to a greater or lesser extent with all mills milling emax as you can only mill so thin, unlike pressing. Pressed a bunch of veneers at just under 0.1mm before now.

As for internal fit, increase the spacer and live with a sloppy fit (+40 or more). There is no way to reduce finishing time on the fit surface and still maintain snug fits, trust me.. Must have put in AT LEAST a couple of hundred hours of late nights and weekends over the past 2 1/2 years to crack this, your wasting your time.

The only current "affordable" systems im aware of that do wet+dry milling is the Origin and kavo everest ones, but there still not great for emax as far as i understand.

As Mark sais focus on whiat it does do well which is zirconia frames and full contour ZR and full contour Emax crowns, forget the inlays and onlays. If you can get enough of the right stuff it will pay for itself, but thats a big IF for a small lab.

 

[charles007]

"How Old is the MCXL", I was told several years ago to look for changes in Cerec systems around year 5 or 6 or so. One year late the Blue Cam came out. Are they planning on changing the MCXL anytime soon ?
As far as cost, I've seen several dry mills under 50k that mill great fitting crowns without wasting time seating.
On emax, B&D told me several weeks ago that labs with their Origin mills are not milling much emax, but did say it mills better than the inlab.

You may have a good compromise in what you want in a cad/cam system. And to be fair, I've seen very good fits made with inlab using cases from my lab that were made from a lab that was a cerec inlab trainer and also lectured for cerec That's why I brought up Lee Culp's name.

 

[paulg100]

From what i know there is no imminent update for the MCXL.

They seem happy to bring up updates for it for now, like the new motors for model milling.

Id say at least 2 years away if not longer, which is ages away in the cad cam world, maybe IDS 2013.

I think its the software and scanner end that needs the most attention at the moment and lets be honest, they are hardly setting the world on fire with the pace that they are devloping that!

 

[Yoda]

I'm sure there is a lot more, but here's my list:
IMHO

Pro's
In-house milling (no waiting for shipments)
Multitude of materials
E-max cad
Stack mill
I did 2 full contour E-max Cad molars for a dentist yesterday in 3 hours including pouring models, scan, mill, fit, stain and glaze, polish, etch and out the door. Pt and doc happy

Con's
Water filter system could have been designed better
Burs pricey
Dongle dongle dongle (I like to play around so I got the unlimited)
Design program sucks b.... Can I say that here?
Margins not always the greatest, but for the most part o.k.
Fit time


Play around with your settings.
Always do bridges on solid models.
Reduced function for frameworks, ALWAYS (this will give proper support for your porcelain)

Hope this helps

 

[Randy Hill PhD]

Life-like,

Like you, I'm a small lab, and went for the Cerec. I, too, had all the same issues your'e talking about. I made a decision. I sent mine back within the 6 month period. I didn't need a $2,000.00 anchor around my neck to finance what wasn't giving me what I needed. It was my first intro to cadcam. I would love to try another scanner though, and I've just heard Jensen is coming out with one soon. Maybe it has by now. who knows. If anyone reads this and knows, please let me know.
Anyway, I like pressing for the fit. My zirc with Cerec fit like socks on a rooster..... really loose. I currently still do the model and die and get zirc scanned at a local lab and returned the next day. He has 2 Lava units, and a host of printers. Try another scanner and see if sending the file off will eliminate some overhead with the milling aspect. JMO

 

[TheLabGuy]

PhD? Piled Higher and Deeper...just checkin'?...lol

 

[Yoda]

My zirc with Cerec fit like socks on a rooster..... really loose.

Did you try different settings? If you spray you have to - the spacer.
Different stone, different settings again.

 

[LifeLike]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for all of the quick replies, as with just about anything you buy from autos to electronics there will always be a next or newer model coming soon, so almost as soon as you purchase you get to see what you could have had only if you waited , but that cycle will never end.

(For a lab your size, the CEREC is probably a good fit. Hopefully you are in a boutique setting where you can get enough money for your work to justify the added costs associated with using that system. I find the unit a little cumbersome and the materials overpriced, but again, it's quite capable if you recognize it's limitations.}

Mark ,
Thanks for the reply, This is exactly what my Lab has become over the last ten years, can't compete with you big boys , so had to specialize and find my niche .

(As for internal fit, increase the spacer and live with a sloppy fit (+40 or more). There is no way to reduce finishing time on the fit surface and still maintain snug fits, trust me.. Must have put in AT LEAST a couple of hundred hours of late nights and weekends over the past 2 1/2 years to crack this, your wasting your time.)

Paulg100,
I really do not have internal fitting problems aand have actually gone as low as -50 on some cases with the spacer, as I said my Drs. really do give me very optimized preps ,I personnally went to each Dr. beforehand and explained the short comings of the milling burs ( ie: no sharp corners and tight spots that the milling burs just can not reach) It is the marginal fit and chipping at the margins that were giving me problems , today I started milling my margins a lot thicker +50 ( it was at zero) and that has helped considerably, it only took about 5 minutes to fit and was much better fit at margin.
(As Mark sais focus on whiat it does do well which is zirconia frames and full contour ZR and full contour Emax crowns, forget the inlays and onlays. If you can get enough of the right stuff it will pay for itself, but thats a big IF for a small lab. )
I am now located in a smaller city.In order for the local dentist to access any type of Cad/Cam it has to be shipped. By positioning myself here I should have more than enough new work, which will only be Cad/Cam, to more than make up the needed revenue.

Yoda,
Thanks a lot for the tips and tricks,
I agree with your pros and cons and like you I'm sure there are many more
I made them give me two extra water tanks , so I could keep one for e-max , one for zirc and one for cad wax , saves a lot of time and dentatech liquid.

Again Thanks to everyone for the help, will try and heed what Mark said. dont have buyers remorse as the Grass is Always Greener

 

[Mark Jackson]

Mark ,
Thanks for the reply, This is exactly what my Lab has become over the last ten years, can't compete with you big boys , so had to specialize and find my niche .

Again Thanks to everyone for the help, will try and heed what Mark said. dont have buyers remorse as the Grass is Always Greener

By the way, welcome to the forum!

You know, one thing I have been guilty of in the past, is trying to be all things to all people. Once I realized that this is not a race, and that keeping up with the Jonses was futile, I was able to relax a little bit. In fact, I would have to say that a lot of our recent success has been due to a more relaxed attitude and not worrying too much about my mistakes, including some bad purchases.

I still get a little resentful, but I don't bog down in remorse and morbid reflection and try to make the best of what I have on hand.

Your little unit will work great for most cases, just try and learn which ones would be best sent out. Find a good lab to partner with and pick and choose the cases you keep in house. I'd also look into seeing where else you can send data using your scanner. Guys like Scott may have the ability to take the data and make the things you need without you losing time trying to make things work.

I'm not your competition. You have a lot of experience and know the ropes better than most, so you're in a good position to pay that unit off, and then possibly sell it, or trade it in on a 3Shape scanner when demand dictates it.

Good luck.

 

[RileyS]

I'm impressed with the amount of courtesy shown on this thread! I'll try to follow suite. First of all your lucky to have doctors that give you the required prep that the inLab calls for, my cases that are prepped well require 2-5 min adjustments at the margins. Unfortunately they make up 10% of the work, even after communicating with docs the need for good preps. If I were in your shoes I'd be a little more inclined to keep the system.
As far as considering 3shape to scan is very strange, you'll have to spend another 25-30K just to scan plus another 5K to buy yet another dongle in order to import the scan to the inlab software. You'll have to transfer that scan into the inlab software which is pathetic when compared to every other program available. Sirona has ignored labs for it's first 25 years and just now is showing some interest. If you look at any other software program youll quickly see the value of buying a different system.
If you can mill the acrylic materials you'll be the 2nd lab I've heard of doing it, it's broken many many burs on me and my regional manager even said its no good.
Your fits will not improve much even if you do get a good tip to use. If I had the money to spend all over again, I'd look more into the origin equipment or the imes-icore milling system. Both have a wide variety of mill sizes and capabilities at prices that compete with the inlab. I've seen the results of the origin many times and I'm always thrilled (though I'd be thrilled with anything after using the inlab system).
Sirona is locked up even though they are trying branch out which means they are much more expensive to use. Like Mark said,
"The good thing about a 3Shape scanner and software is that every milling machine (or other stl device) in the world becomes yours."

If you want my complete feelings on the system, call me tomorrow as I painstakingly scan, slowly design, mill, thin margins, grind margins, all while knowing there are many better systems out there that I could be using for the same price taht also allow me to send to any milling center for fast turn arounds should the mill need a tune up one day.

 

[paulg100]

Forgot to say,

Use a combo of 12 step bur and 12s round bur for the glass stuff (the 12 bur will help with internal fits),dont use 2 12's.

And yeah, forget about milling cadwax and cadtemp, BRING OUT CARBIDES SIRONA, we cant mill these materials with fine diamonds.

When you say you dont thave problems with internal fits, are you comparing this to what can be acheived with pressing? if so id love to know what the secret is, especially if you are working under mag, which i am also(upto x20).

The quality of fit i can get with pressing is in another league, even on "perfect cerec preps".

Best way to see this is on a flat tabel top onlay. Youd think ok the surface is completly flat, surely the mill can handle that. Mill a unit and then wax and press a unit, the difference in the fits is so obvious, the milled one will skit around some, while the pressed one is 100% stable.

 

[RileyS]

Paul, for the model milling you'll get carbides that can mill the crapwax. Upgrade to mill models is $5000. I think why would I mill a model on the same machine that gives me awful margins and fits?!?

 

[paulg100]

Erm thanks, but i aint spending a single penny more on my wonderful inlab system untill Sirona deliver what they told me this system would do in the first place..which i am already paying for.... and we know this is not gonna happen.

No more Sirona equipment, upgrades or dongles for me thanks unless is given to me FOC as a good will gesture for the time and accounts i have lost due to this system.

 

[harmonylab]

Paul, for the model milling you'll get carbides that can mill the crapwax. Upgrade to mill models is $5000. I think why would I mill a model on the same machine that gives me awful margins and fits?!?

can the carbides be used for zirconia and emax?