Ivoclar Prime

[grantoz]

Just a quick observation i looked at the marketing today flexual strength of Ivoclars Zircad prime transition trans and colour Zi blanks 1200mpa in big writing then in small print incisal strength 650mpa is it just me or is this misleading as i believe these type of zirconias should only be rated by their weakest part or at least an average strength. Whats every ones thoughts on this as im a bit pi55ed about this.

 

[Car 54]

Yep, I saw the same thing and thought it was a little misleading. It's all marketing, to get our attention.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of that type of gradient strength, translucent zirconia?

It becomes a numbers game. Like below, Origin, make up your mind, is Beyond Plus 1000 (instructions) 1100 or 1250mpa?
I think they just want to draw people away from other zircoinas in that, "hey, ours is just as strong if not stronger but more translucent".

 

[Contraluz]

Whats every ones thoughts

Yeah, kinda agree with you there. But, how is it with the other shaded and graded pucks? Are they the same strength, all the way through?

 

[Patrick Coon]

Yeah, kinda agree with you there. But, how is it with the other shaded and graded pucks? Are they the same strength, all the way through?

Not if they are using different translucencies. Most layered disks on the market are using the same translucency powder in different shades to give that layered look.

Lets think about restorations in general.

PFMs: layering porcelain is only 90MPa done lots of restorations with full occlusal porcelain with no issues (if done correctly)
Lithium Disilicate: ~500MPA again, lots of restorations out there with no issues
Layered Zirconia: ~1150MPa for substructure and 90MPa for layering. Again lots out there with no chipping.
Full contour Zirconia: anywhere from 550MPa to 1200+MPa. no problems when indications are followed correctly.

If I'm doing a large bridge with PRIME, then I want to make sure that the Majority of the connector is in the 1100MPa area (at least 7 sq mm) to get that strength to resist fracture. My 650MPa occlusal and incisal areas are still more than 7 times the flexural strength and 2.5 times the fracture toughness of the layered porcelain you put on any restoration.

 

[user name]

So with the multitrans materials, is the shrinkage calculated as an average? I have yet to find one that will work for a large span because the shrinkage cause warping.

 

[Patrick Coon]

No, it is an exact number with PRIME. They have done special conditioning to both the 3Y and 5Y powders to bring the sintering kinetics in line with each other so that they shrink the same. Fits on everything I've seen and done have been phenomenal (from singles to full arches).

 

[KIM]

Yep, I saw the same thing and thought it was a little misleading. It's all marketing, to get our attention.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of that type of gradient strength, translucent zirconia?

It becomes a numbers game. Like below, Origin, make up your mind, is Beyond Plus 1000 (instructions) 1100 or 1250mpa?
I think they just want to draw people away from other zircoinas in that, "hey, ours is just as strong if not stronger but more translucent".

View attachment 32913

So, CAR 54, in this particular case, I am going to go out on a limb and say that what I see in your image with different MPa on different shaded discs is due to the fact that coloring liquids typically weaken ZR, they don't strengthen it and some shades have more "Color" than others. Just my 2 cents. And Patrick brings up some very valid points in his post above regarding strength. Most ZR discs on the market should really be referred to as "Poly-chromatic" not "Multi layered" as a material like Prime (And some others) have varying levels of opacity which equates to strength when talking about ZR.

 

[Car 54]

Hi Kim,

But 2 of the examples were of white unshaded discs. One is at 1100, the other at 1250?

 

[Patrick Coon]

Hi Kim,

But 2 of the examples were of white unshaded discs. One is at 1100, the other at 1250?

I had to go back and look at your image as well. I thought maybe they were different versions (as I see they are marked V6.1),but both are the same.

The only other thing I can think of, is maybe they have done further testing and adjusted their numbers accordingly. Sometimes manufacturers will put a number on the material from a limited run. But as more gets manufactured and tested, they will adjust the values to reflect the average tested values. This can make the number increase or decrease. Is one disk new and the other you've had for quite a while or do they have quite different manufacture dates on them (may account for the different labeling).

Of course this is making a lot of assumptions on my part on a disk that I am aware of, but have not used.

 

[Car 54]

I had to go back and look at your image as well. I thought maybe they were different versions (as I see they are marked V6.1),but both are the same.

The only other thing I can think of, is maybe they have done further testing and adjusted their numbers accordingly. Sometimes manufacturers will put a number on the material from a limited run. But as more gets manufactured and tested, they will adjust the values to reflect the average tested values. This can make the number increase or decrease. Is one disk new and the other you've had for quite a while or do they have quite different manufacture dates on them (may account for the different labeling).

Of course this is making a lot of assumptions on my part on a disk that I am aware of, but have not used.

It seems to be random. I've noticed it on and off over 6 months?
You may be right, it could just be a stamped lot number or an edit of that lot numbers strength.
I know the Live (their strongest unshaded material) is rated at 1200.
Maybe it's time to give them a call, just out of curiosity's sake?

I didn't mean to call out the manufactures, I was just in a bit of a bad mood, and kinda got on their cases.
Thank you and Kim for taking it in stride

 

[Patrick Coon]

I didn't mean to call out the manufactures, I was just in a bit of a bad mood, and kinda got on their cases.
Thank you and Kim for taking it in stride

No problem! I'm here to help. I've had very similar questions to yours over the years, and now that I work for a manufacturer I understand how it works on this side (at least a little) better.

I would not think they would change the strength values from batch to batch. What usually happens is that as you get more and more Data you can be more precise about average tested values.

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

Just a quick observation i looked at the marketing today flexual strength of Ivoclars Zircad prime transition trans and colour Zi blanks 1200mpa in big writing then in small print incisal strength 650mpa is it just me or is this misleading as i believe these type of zirconias should only be rated by their weakest part or at least an average strength. Whats every ones thoughts on this as im a bit pi55ed about this.

while i agree, thats still about 3x as strong (or more) as layered ceramic. lets not get too worked up over it.

 

[Car 54]

No problem! I'm here to help. I've had very similar questions to yours over the years, and now that I work for a manufacturer I understand how it works on this side (at least a little) better.

I would not think they would change the strength values from batch to batch. What usually happens is that as you get more and more Data you can be more precise about average tested values.

Thanks for your understanding, Patrick

As far as the data changing over time, like with emax in that it is stronger than they thought, compared to maybe being a bit conservative
when it first came out with it's initial mpa numbers?

 

[Car 54]

while i agree, thats still about 3x as strong (or more) as layered ceramic. lets not get too worked up over it.

No, but we must get worked up, follow my lead...lol

 

[user name]

It is confusing. Id like to hear what B&D Dental says is the reason...

 

[KIM]

Hi Kim,

But 2 of the examples were of white unshaded discs. One is at 1100, the other at 1250?

Ahh! Sorry, I thought they were shaded...So what I said holds true of preshaded ZR materials; Basically, they vary to some degree in flexural strength depending on shade...So, as far as you're pointing out those were unshaded, I agree, it doesn't make any sense? There is always a range of MPa in a scatter chart when testing flexural strength but I don't believe any regulatory body mandates which number is posted. The question is, which number do you go with? I will draw no comparison to other things that you might measure in life, but I am pretty sure you will "pick up what I'm puttin' down"...Drop the mic.....

 

[user name]

Silly me. Its thicker. Of coarse its stronger.

 

[Car 54]

Ahh! Sorry, I thought they were shaded...So what I said holds true of preshaded ZR materials; Basically, they vary to some degree in flexural strength depending on shade...So, as far as you're pointing out those were unshaded, I agree, it doesn't make any sense? There is always a range of MPa in a scatter chart when testing flexural strength but I don't believe any regulatory body mandates which number is posted. The question is, which number do you go with? I will draw no comparison to other things that you might measure in life, but I am pretty sure you will "pick up what I'm puttin' down"...Drop the mic.....

No problem, friend, as I did know what you were implying, which made sense, so I tried to restrain myself from jumping all over you like a monkey on a cupcake

 

[Car 54]

Silly me. Its thicker. Of coarse its stronger.

Same with my photo, the 16mm is 1250, the 12mm is 1100

 

[sidesh0wb0b]

No, but we must get worked up, follow my lead...lol

count me in!