ivoclar d. sign annoying finish

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envisiondental

New Member
#1
Quick question for those d.sign gurus out there.. I guess I got used to the finish and surface bubbles that I have to deal with on a daily basis... I'm making these crowns to manufacturers specs.. for the most part.
Anyway I received a trial kit of the Noritake super porcelain EX-3 and have built a few crowns with it.. and the bottom line is the finish/glaze is excellent, no surface porosity on glaze... no stress cracks on single crowns that I'm used to seeing with the d.sign on the first bake. The only annoyance is the opaque seems to be on the lighter side .. so when I don't have much body porcelain the shade seems to lighten slightly... other than that it's definitely easier to use and I could imagine doing some 1 bake crowns with it.. which I have not been able to do since I was using Weiland reflex.
So I guess my question is ... Is the surface porosity(glaze w/out glaze material) and tearing on the first bake just issues I have to deal with using this D. sign porcelain? or am I doing something wrong.. All the complaints I've ever heard about this porcelain are the exact issues I'm having. In fact I was told by a rep from a diff company that the Ivoclar inline is IPS d.sign.. but with all the problems fixed.
 
TheLabGuy

TheLabGuy

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#2
Quick question for those d.sign gurus out there.. I guess I got used to I told by a rep from a diff company that the Ivoclar inline is IPS d.sign.. but with all the problems fixed.
I doubt that, their different temperatures. As for you problems, we've talked about them in this thread. http://dentallabnetwork.com/forums/f4/d-sign-porcelain-1751/

I always do two bakes, you have to on all ivoclar products. If you want one bake, try a different porcelain.
 
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envisiondental

New Member
#3
Ok.. so I read a little more on the board and found that metal design causes the cracks on the first bakes.. I can except that so I'll omit that from my question.. I'll also clarify a little on the surface bubbles on the glaze... first I usually prepolish which usually takes care of about 60 percent of the problem.. but I would say 90 percent of the time there is always 3 or more little bubbles .. seems like their always in the most annoying areas.. buccal mesial for example.. I usually don't use glaze paste.. sometimes a little though. Again when i used Weiland Reflex and this Noritake sample the finish is definitely much better.. not necessary to touch the crown after the glaze. I'm using the programat p300.
 
Al.

Al.

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#4
In fact I was told by a rep from a diff company that the Ivoclar inline is IPS d.sign.. but with all the problems fixed.
They are completly different.
I use inline and am happy with it. I bought a trial kit of dsign. It is a nice porc but was too technique sensitive for me to use. I need more predictable results.
I had tears with design but not those small bubbles on the surface. If it is slightly underfired you will get small bubbles that really show up in a natural glaze. Also remixing dried porcelin does it to me everytime.

Lee Culp used to use and endorse dsign but I heard he quit. I dont know if that is true.

envison, how are your refactory venners working out for you?
 
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TheLabGuy

TheLabGuy

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#5
Surface bubbles in the glaze?........It's gotta be underfiring........try raising your temperature about 30 degrees F and let me know what you get, and hey, it might be getting underfired in the baking cycle, not the glaze cycle, you're only noticing it in the glaze cycle.
 
TheLabGuy

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#7
givin this a try right now... will update later
Your oven may need to be raised a 100 degrees F or more, yes it can be that far off. My ovens were 65 degrees F off when I bought them new. Without being able to see it, I won't be able to tell.
 
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envisiondental

New Member
#8
Ok.. thought I'd give it a week and a whole slew of crowns before I came to a conclusion.

So.... 100 percent yes .. it worked raising the temperature I went from 870 body bake to 880 and have had none(0) of the same problems(surface bubbles and even most of the tearing look).
Thanks for all the feedback and info... saves me a daily annoyance that was really getting on my nerves... to the point I was trying other trial kits of porcelain I have.

It is kinda annoying to have a brand new Porcelain oven... Programat p300 and a brand new set of porcelain and already have to fudge with the temps.. this was the reason why I got rid of my old oven.. always having to adjust things..

If there are any more tips on this IPS d.sign porcelain it would be most appreciated.

Thanks again for the help.
 
TheLabGuy

TheLabGuy

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#9
If there are any more tips on this IPS d.sign porcelain it would be most appreciated.
Tons of great tips here http://dentallabnetwork.com/forums/f4/d-sign-porcelain-1751/

in addition, you always should adjust your oven....I always have too. A slight increase in electricity, or if i got all my equipment up and running it draws from the electricity, I notice a difference and compensate for that. Especially when it comes to doing Captek substructures...you have to really pay attention, 3 degrees Celsius in variance is all you get between something beautiful and a nightmare.
 
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envisiondental

New Member
#10
Guess I don't understand electricity..
Still annoys me though... I thought the thermocouple checked the temperature in the firing chamber/muffle.. so when the thermocouple reads 900 degrees celcius .. that 900 degrees is the temperature in the oven.

Seems like it is more likely a fluctuation in the porcelain itself... or I am supposed to assume when the thermocouple registers that it's 910 degrees in the furnace that it is only 900? And I do have the furnace on it's own circuit so it shouldn't be fluctuating. Ok.. or I'm not understanding or I'm missing something.. I can accept that.
 
sixonice

sixonice

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#11
Guess I don't understand electricity..
Still annoys me though... I thought the thermocouple checked the temperature in the firing chamber/muffle.. so when the thermocouple reads 900 degrees celcius .. that 900 degrees is the temperature in the oven.

Seems like it is more likely a fluctuation in the porcelain itself... or I am supposed to assume when the thermocouple registers that it's 910 degrees in the furnace that it is only 900? And I do have the furnace on it's own circuit so it shouldn't be fluctuating. Ok.. or I'm not understanding or I'm missing something.. I can accept that.
Sounds like the 10C bump in high temp solved your issues for the most part. My opinion is it is all about "tweaking". The manufacturers give the recommendations, or what they feel is best. Making slight adjustments to get superior results is not unusal. Porcelain can be mysterious! One day it is firing perfect, the next your having problems. Alot of it (I think) depends on humidity, temperature & what type of restorations your firing.
 
L

labdude

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#13
Envisiondental,
It is very complicated on the level your talking about. All things need to be "tweaked" a little on a smal scale.
My scopes don't even track to an accuracy of less than an arc minute unless I spend a large amount of time adjusting them. Then I can't get better than maybe 30 arc seconds.
Just is that your at a point where your human factor can come closer than a machine. Not always this way, but still most times it is.
 
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envisiondental

New Member
#14
It's a small world.. Mckenzie ortho? I've sent work to you.. I was working with Hayden Family in Eugene.. now your probably getting some work from Mario at Valinor in Eugene.. we both quit there a couple years ago.. weird...
 
Al.

Al.

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#15
Sounds like the 10C bump in high temp solved your issues for the most part. My opinion is it is all about "tweaking". The manufacturers give the recommendations, or what they feel is best. Making slight adjustments to get superior results is not unusal. Porcelain can be mysterious! One day it is firing perfect, the next your having problems. Alot of it (I think) depends on humidity, temperature & what type of restorations your firing.
Yep and how many units you have on the tray and if they are sitting directly on the tray or raised on a peg make a difference in my furnace.
 
L

labdude

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#18
Hi Envision,
Yup did a little for Valinor. My turn around to him was not a priority. I don't understand why he was sending those to me. (space maintainers, band and loop)
My charges for the work were just plain to high. I really felt that he could do them himself for the bucks he was paying me. Or at the least train someone to do them in his lab.
I am so much just an ortho lab it is ridiculous. Doesn't seem to be many, if any, like me.
I have heard of the Hayden group from there office over by Chambers in Eugene. That you??
You know, there was just a few weird things I made for them. They have had a 20 cent credit for a few years now.
My focus has always been working for Orthodontists, no one else.
I get the occasional referal, or mostly, call out of the blue, from GPs.
Nice to here from you.
Mike.
 
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