First Veneer Case

[Alistar]

This was my first veneer case. I have been designated to posterior work for years (7ish years),while I learned to handle ceramics. We are a family lab and my dad has done all the anterior work forever (25years+). But we recently acquired some new accounts through the mail and through our expanding implant work. I finally worked out a deal to do some anterior stuff. Much to the dismay of my father...

This case was this doctors first veneer + implant case...it may have been her first veneer case all together. She's only 32years old...and I'm only 31, so we we where both in the same boat. I ended up sending her the Pascal Magne book "Bonded Porcelain Restorations in the Anterior Dentition" to show her visually how I wanted things prep'd, because talking on the phone was not working.

She didn't carry the prep through the distal of #8 enough and #7 was not brought sub gingival enough..., so it made it tough for me to keep the distal contact broad and line angles, and proportions right. We had also talked about reducing antagonist #27, because this guy was very tight in protrusive function and a bruxer. That never happened. Anyway..to the eye everything looked good on the models, but through the lens things looked canted. confused:

In the end the doc and patient loved it and said it was just what they wanted, and wouldn't change a thing.

Whew!

Anyway...first veneer case....let the ripping begin. popcorn


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[Alistar]

oops forgot one pic.
<a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fbGArTDvuqX4myomAZ22fQ?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GZawiRzA-DU/TjmNzpmkGwI/AAAAAAAAAMc/2ChyRr2SWNY/s640/IMG_2677.jpg" height="427" width="640" /></a>

 

[rkm rdt]

That turned out really well.
Veneers adjacent to implant crowns can be tricky but you got a good match here.I like the incisal embrassures.

 

[PDC]

In the end the doc and patient loved it and said it was just what they wanted, and wouldn't change a thing.
QUOTE]

That's all that matters!

 

[NicelyMKV]

Looks great. Closing up diastemas can be a pain in the A$$! Emax? I hope you thanked your Dad for this lol

 

[Alistar]

Looks great. Closing up diastemas can be a pain in the A$$! Emax? I hope you thanked your Dad for this lol

Thanks Jason,

This was E.max V2 ingot, layered BL dentin and Opal Enamels with some GC Lustre at the gingival and feathered in here and there. Shade was to be 1m2 transitioning to 0m3/0m2.

I would have liked the insical effects to be a bit more dynamic, but looking at it in the mouth i don't think it would have looked right. You guys have thoughts on that?

My dad is really hard to learn from. I did have more surface texture on there, but he advised I take it off and smooth it. He's a guy that has zero tact, so everything that comes out of his mouth is a kin to verbal diarrhea. But I did thank him for the input.

 

[Alistar]

Thanks PDC and RMK.

You guys have any suggestions for improvement???

 

[NicelyMKV]

Dads are that way. Always start you out with the difficult stuff 3D shades are a real pain as well. Your 1st anterior case was tough all around. I always prefer some surface texture but some of my accounts prefer it slick as glass. I always felt it looked more natural with at least something but over time I realized give them what they ask for. I have seen some God awful straight deep vertical lines with a disc and always wandered if some Doctors were scared off of texture by another Lab doing that in the past. Great job though.

 

[Alistar]

Dads are that way. Always start you out with the difficult stuff 3D shades are a real pain as well. Your 1st anterior case was tough all around. I always prefer some surface texture but some of my accounts prefer it slick as glass. I always felt it looked more natural with at least something but over time I realized give them what they ask for. I have seen some God awful straight deep vertical lines with a disc and always wandered if some Doctors were scared off of texture by another Lab doing that in the past. Great job though.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I've seen some wretched texture in model work as well, just like you're talking about. I guess doing it slick is the "safe" way, and that's the way my dad has done it.

I think it was Oliver Brix I was reading, who said "surface texture is like the finger print of a tooth, it's what makes it unique and natural". Or something like that.

 

[dmonwaxa]

There's always room for improvement. You don well young man, veneers next to implants are tricky, but I think you've done well starting out the gates. As was said above as long as the patient and dds are happy, then you were successful. Keep up the good work and continue to learn and improve.

 

[Alistar]

There's always room for improvement. You don well young man, veneers next to implants are tricky, but I think you've done well starting out the gates. As was said above as long as the patient and dds are happy, then you were successful. Keep up the good work and continue to learn and improve.

Thanks Mon

 

[NicelyMKV]

I have Oliver Brix book fundamentals of esthetics. Unbelievable! Read through it and am going to attempt to try and follow his instruction.

 

[Bobby Orr ceramics]

Nice Job Young Skywalker !!!

Keep massaging the artistry and don't be afraid to make mistakes. This will propel you farther in the journey. Pascal's book is awesome !! I'd be happy to give ya some pointers along the way for you. Keep posting !!

 

[paulg100]

nice start

surface texture aside, one thing i would say with your luster is its uniform.

Try hitting your line angles with a rubber wheel to dull and vary the surface luster, this breaks things up more. Think of the lips rubbing on the most prominent areas of the tooth and dulling them, this is what were trying to replicate.

subtle but effective.

 

[Alistar]

Thanks Paul and B.O.C.,

I really appreciate your input. I'll be putting your advice into practice right after I get done typing this.

I'm really looking forward to taking some courses on anterior aethsetics. I keep hounding my Ivoclar rep to get me into the Oliver Brix course, but it looks like i'll have to wait till the next time it comes around. I guess there's a list with about 50 people waiting to get in.

I've also enquired to Matt Roberts about upcoming courses.

I really can't say enough about how much I've learned just from what you guys post and talk about on here. It's getting to the point where my dad and everyone in the lab is coming to me with questions about this case and that, and it's all because of what I've been learning on here. So..hats off..you guys really inspire me.

Next case I have is a single central over a custom zir abutment. Layered vm9 over lava core.

 

[charles007]

Ali, your work is very nice and your years ahead of others with your experience...

Always remember ...Father Knows Best... and keep your books at your fingertips, and your camera by your side........in case he's wrong, which may happen alot

Remember, open incisal embrasers, line angles, surface texture/anatomy and not making multi- anteriors cases the same color is key.
Hope to see more of your work ..

Charles

 

[Al.]

Thanks PDC and RMK.

You guys have any suggestions for improvement???

Anteriors can be tough especially cosmtic stuff. Patients and Drs can be very demanding.

I try to collect anterior cases I pick up on line. I save the pics and often use them as a guide for similar cases I work on.

First I focus on the two centrals. Trying to keep the midline or M contacts as straight as possible all the way to the gin. You must use the solid model for this.
I try to keep the incisal edges of 8 and 9 straight and thin and sharp. Keep the irregularties at the macro level.

You have the incisal edge of 8 going up hill compared to 9.
Roll the distals. Yours are flared out. Making them look like they are pointing outwards rather towards the midline. Try to make 8 and 9 mirror images of each other.



Same with the laterals. Roll the distals, yours look flared out. They should be pointing towards the midline. Try to make your M line angle go from the M incisal edge to the middle of the tooth. Not straight down like the M contacts of 8 and 9. That helps to point them in the right direction.
Try to make your line angles sharp and defined. Mark them if you have to so you grind on either side of them but not round them over.
Note in my pic below how the light reflection follows the line angles on the M of the lats.



As far as surface texture or anatomy. Like your dad said go light. Err on not enough or it may come back. I prefer to keep it more on the macro level also.
I often prefer a very smooth but satin finish so after glaze I go over the highlights with a pink rubber wheel.

 

[paulg100]

yeah one thing thats made a big difference for me is always underglaze then adjust your surface luster with wheels and polish.

If you over glaze or even glaze as per the manuals, its really hard to get control over it again, so underglaze and manually bring it up.

And yep the satin kinda plasticy look is a good average surface shine. Once theres siliva on the ceramic it comes out just about right.

 

[Alistar]

Just the man I wanted to hear from.

I try to keep the incisal edges of 8 and 9 straight and thin and sharp. Keep the irregularties at the macro level.

Is there a technique or product you use to keep your veneers secured on the model while adjusting the incisal edges? I had a heck of a time keeping these things strait and in place while adjusting.

You have the incisal edge of 8 going up hill compared to 9.
Roll the distals. Yours are flared out. Making them look like they are pointing outwards rather towards the midline.

I totally agree. When I look at these pics...my eye immediately goes to 8 and says "that's not right". I think that after working on these for about 14hrs(yes, this took me from sun up to sun-down) my brain went batty. I also had a heck of a time getting the two centrals to look the same size proportionally, because of how much "bigger" the implant crown was.

I think I rushed my wax-up and spent time adjusting my pressing to get the midline, and then the same with my porcelain build. I didn't spend enough time getting things strait in the porcelain and then had to grind in my midline then add to one and then grind it in again. It just seemed like I was making work for myself every time I added on. I wish it would have been like my posterior work...where I can add and then just polish/glaze it and bang I'm done.

Same with the laterals. Roll the distals, yours look flared out. They should be pointing towards the midline. Try to make your M line angle go from the M incisal edge to the middle of the tooth. Not straight down like the M contacts of 8 and 9. That helps to point them in the right direction.

As far as surface texture or anatomy. Like your dad said go light. Err on not enough or it may come back. I prefer to keep it more on the macro level also.
I often prefer a very smooth but satin finish so after glaze I go over the highlights with a pink rubber wheel.

Thanks for the pointers and tips Al. It really means a lot to me for you take the time to break this down and pin point the areas that need be fixed and how fix them.

You got a charity I can give to in your name? Sorry, I can't name my first born after you...she's a girl anyway.

 

[Alistar]

yeah one thing thats made a big difference for me is always underglaze then adjust your surface luster with wheels and polish.

If you over glaze or even glaze as per the manuals, its really hard to get control over it again, so underglaze and manually bring it up.

And yep the satin kinda plasticy look is a good average surface shine. Once theres siliva on the ceramic it comes out just about right.

Right on Paul. I did over glaze these. Thanks for the input.